General Discussion of the Nord Stage (EX), Nord Stage 2 (EX), and Nord Stage 3 Synths, FAQ, Troubleshooting etc.

Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby jaapb » 11 Mar 2018, 18:51

analogika wrote:They sound different and play differently.

Some of us prefer the Stage 2; Clavia themselves (and many/most of users) seem to prefer the Stage 3.

This is not going to change.


Oké thanks for your quick response Analogika!
I know what to do; First trying before ordering ;-)
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2


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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby solmaster » 11 Mar 2018, 19:03

There are some Stage 3 owners who are still not happy with the velocity curve and feel they can't get the full range from pp to sfz that they could on the Stage 2 and the other (bigger) issue is MIDI. There are still a number of missing MIDI features a lot of owners want to see in the next update. This is a MAJOR issue for some and some of these owners have sold their Stage 3 and gone back to their Stage 2. It was mentioned on another post that the market for the Stage 3 is not necessarily Stage 2 owners. There is definitely some truth in that.
On a personal level, I have a Stage 3 88 and quite happy with the velocity curve (as most owners are I believe) and it's my only keyboard on shows, gigs and as an accompanying instrument, so the 'missing' MIDI features don't concern me.
To me, it sounds wonderful, easy to use and program and I'm entirely delighted with it.
Whether it's worth the upgrade from your Stage 2, only you can decide-More memory, More Polyphony, A1Synth Engine, OLED display, Seamless Transitions and Song Mode among other things make a strong case.
Maybe some of the guys who have done that could contribute to this one?
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby anotherscott » 11 Mar 2018, 23:46

cgrafx wrote:There is zero evidence of a preloaded OS on ROM on any Nord keyboard aside from the boot loader.

I don't believe that's true... I remember reading that the reason that (unlike every other sound) the Nord organs cannot be updated (no Electro or Stage has ever been able to have its basic organ model updated to a later implementation) is because all the code for the organ modeling is in ROM and not in rewritable flash. So there is apparently some code other than a boot loader in there.

cgrafx wrote:t is all flash, doing otherwise would be an utter waste of engineering time, money, and board real-estate.

I don't understand that argument. To the contrary, putting stuff in ROM is cheaper than putting it in rewritable flash. All the rewritable flash is part of what makes Nords more expensive than boards that have almost everything in ROM. If you don't need it to be rewritable, you put it in ROM.

cgrafx wrote:Nobody who knows anything about production would pre-build a years worth of product before it ships and they can gauge what demand will be

They already had a rough gauge of what demand would be, because they knew the rate of sales of the NS2EX, and before that, the NS2, etc. They would not have to pull a number out of the air. A pretty safe, conservative estimate would be that the NS3 would likely sell at at least the rate the NS2EX had been selling.

cgrafx wrote:You build what you need to fill your first orders and make sure you don't have any major issues before ordering in large quantities.

That's what prototyping is for, and building patchability into the design. But let's even say they did a small initial run, and determined it was sufficiently properly functional (with the ability to software-patch as needed). They could have gone through those very quickly, and they could still then be shipping boards manufactured long ago, from the first "volume" run.

From what I know, just a plain PCB with no components on it, per unit, costs about 250% more in quantities of 1,000 as it does in quantities of 10,000 and about 250% more again in quantities of 100 as it does in quantities of 1000. With that kind of cost differential, if you had the capital or cash flow to support it, you'd be better off ordering a year's worth at a time.

derrellpiper wrote:My impression as a software engineer, is that the firmware contains the entire OS. That's consistent with the write times for the flash during OS updates.

There is no way to know that, since we don't know the size of the complete set of NS3 operating code. The Nord Stage 3 update 1.36 is about 8 mb (including the code to execute the update itself). It's possible that the total NS3 OS is only 8 mb big, and the update indeed replaces the entirety of it; OR the 8 mb could be patches to an OS that is in ROM. Knowing the write times gives you no clue whatsoever as to which of those two are true.

analogika wrote:Purchasing and finishing the entire run’s worth of boards ahead of time is a perfect way to bankrupt a company: if you have a years’ or two years’ worth of product investment tied up and sitting there (and consequently a years’ worth of potential profits), a single error in the hardware wipes out the entire investment.

This is what all companies deal with. In my own company, we have labels and packaging that will last us over a year, because it is simply far more cost effective than having it printed as we need it. But yes, there is a risk. If we mess up and order thousands of wrong packages, or if a product change happens requiring us to change the packaging and leaving us with a lot of unusable packaging, that will cost us a lot of money. That's business.

It is possible that a year's worth of a circuit board would cost Nord, say, only 3x what a month's worth would cost them. Assuming it is not such an expensive board that that much outlay would cripple the business, it would make sense to order a year's worth.
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby analogika » 11 Mar 2018, 23:56

anotherscott wrote:
analogika wrote:Purchasing and finishing the entire run’s worth of boards ahead of time is a perfect way to bankrupt a company: if you have a years’ or two years’ worth of product investment tied up and sitting there (and consequently a years’ worth of potential profits), a single error in the hardware wipes out the entire investment.

This is what all companies deal with. In my own company, we have labels and packaging that will last us over a year, because it is simply far more cost effective than having it printed as we need it. But yes, there is a risk. If we mess up and order thousands of wrong packages, or if a product change happens requiring us to change the packaging and leaving us with a lot of unusable packaging, that will cost us a lot of money. That's business.

It is possible that a year's worth of a circuit board would cost Nord, say, only 3x what a month's worth would cost them. Assuming it is not such an expensive board that that much outlay would cripple the business, it would make sense to order a year's worth.

How would that calculation look if your business were the packaging?
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby anotherscott » 12 Mar 2018, 00:44

analogika wrote:How would that calculation look if your business were the packaging?

That's a non-sequitor. Nord's business is not this one board that holds the NS3 operating code. The NS3 consists of multiple boards as well as numerous other components, plus they have many other products besides the NS3. A catastrophic failure that required destruction of the inventory of one circuit board for one model should not bankrupt the company, even if they had a year's worth. It's also something that's unlikely to happen. I am unaware that Nord ever had such a massive failure that they had to recall every unit of a model to replace a board. And if the failure is not so catastrophic that it must be replaced in the field (say, causing outright product inoperability, or fire), then it is not so catastrophic that you cannot keep using it until your stock is gone.

But yeah, businesses sometimes make mistakes. My business sells products that have expiration dates, and we miscalculated and had to destroy a lot of product. But it was not our only product, we didn't bet the company on its production, and we survived. What was the alternative? Making a smaller amount in the first place would have had such a high cost per unit that we couldn't have sold it profitably anyway. In hindsight, we should never have made that particular product. But these are the risks of business. You win some, you lose some. You just have to hope you win more than you lose. ;-)

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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby analogika » 12 Mar 2018, 01:56

I suppose.

But I do believe that the actual numbers of products sold are far smaller than most here would assume, and that miscalculations are indeed very risky.

But none of us are privy to the details of Clavia’s internal calculations.

Thanks for the insight into yours.
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby aureliopenna » 12 Mar 2018, 05:53

Well, returning to the post subject....

I had a feel more time today with my new (or new old :? ) NS3C and again, I put both NS2 and NS3 Side by side to "comparing the incomparable".
and... Stay with me.
Pianos on NS3 doesn't have realease or Sympatetic Resonance like on NS2 at all...
Velocity on my NS2C Rev B is more explicit shown cause the pianos sampler goes from sublte sound to bright and harness sound. To make my self clear, it is kind off they have a filter ressonance velocity activated which is cool in terms expressiveness.
until here no news and you guys probably are thinking: "ok, ok, same old, same old"
BUUUUUUTTTTTTT...

Now you guys probably will think that I got nuts: Believe it or not I have here in my studio with another Nord Stage 3! no kidding!
- It is sound louder than NS2 (the other NS3 was far softer) I did a mistake and put NS2 on lo gain channel, after put the signal level IN equal for both NS2 sound louder than NS3 actually.
-Dynamics ROCKS (just velocity ok, not the sound). Besides the fact that I don't like the lack of release and ressonance (causing a dry sound on NS3, good for staccatos, bad for legatos) either the lack of subtleness on "pp" dynamics and lack of harshness on "fff" dynamics, the NS3 is very correct with it dynamic. Now the board respondes what I'm playing!
- Stereo 3d Image is there! (again believe it or not)
- Synth Section sounds in face and fat
- Organ is sounding great and still smooth!
- Sample also sound great, normal actually.
Even the Keyboard Eq (Low, Mid and Bright) is sounding ok!

The Eq section (main) still have less force than NS2 but It's ok, once it is different, but if you tweak you'll be able to find the right eq somewhere.

Guys I not kiding, I still prefer the piano sounds of NS2 but now just prefer a little bit, and NS3 is back on fight again because this one is not same from that my first one.
Last edited by aureliopenna on 12 Mar 2018, 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby RichardG » 12 Mar 2018, 10:15

aureliopenna wrote:Well, returning to the post subject....


Thank you for being so open (minded) and are willing to revisit earlier complaints/gripes and be honest about them ! :clap:

It does point to the discussion right before about the hardware/versions of the (earlier) NS3 batch.
I'm wondering if Clavia has anything to say about this ?

I really hope for you that you can now base your decision between 2 fully functional instruments and choose what's best for you, because in the end YOU must be happy !
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby baekgaard » 12 Mar 2018, 12:13

aureliopenna wrote:Well, returning to the post subject....


Been looking forward to hear your update, so great to see that you share that with us as well.

I'm not sure if I follow completely what has happened, but my current understanding is that you have now received a replacement for your original NS3C.

In addition, did you then also get/borrow another (a 3rd) NS3 of some kind (73 or 88 model)?

Anyway, you wrote:

Pianos on NS3 doesn't have realease or Sympatetic Resonance like on NS2 at all...


Just checking -- but I assume you are using the exact same samples (e.g. 3D Royal XL) in both boards? And that you of course have enabled string res and soft release :-)

Did you change/try to change the level of the sympathetic resonance in the sound menu of the NS3 (you probably know, but it is an option you can tweak: Sound Menu/Piano String Res Level)? If the NS2 offers a similar option, maybe you changed that years ago away from the default value, or it could just be that Clavia have tweaked the default setting when creating the NS3 generation of instruments.

Dynamics ROCKS (just velocity ok, not the sound). Besides the fact that I don't like the lack of release and ressonance (causing a dry sound on NS3, good for staccatos, bad for legatos) either the lack of subtleness on "pp" dynamics and lack of harshness on "fff" dynamics, the NS3 is very correct with it dynamic. Now the board respondes what I'm playing!


I'm not sure if this is how a 3rd unit behaves (also a NS3C?) or what, but it seems as if (both?) your replacement unit(s) don't change the sound characteristics in the same way as your NS2C does:

Velocity on my NS2C Rev B is more explicit shown cause the pianos sampler goes from sublte sound to bright and harness sound.
To make my self clear, it is kind off they have a filter ressonance velocity activated which is cool in terms expressiveness.


I have earlier on compared how my (somewhat old) NE3 behaves compared to the more recent NS3. When playing the same piano sound, they both change between the same set of underlying sampled sounds (there is no difference between how many different samples/levels they change between). The NE3 has a somewhat exaggerated amplitude response (the dynamic range between pp and ff is higher) compared to the NS3, that seems more "natural" to me, but as said, both go through the same underlying samples from pp to ff. The NS3 seems to scale them with less artefacts and thus more cleanly within each level.

If you (or someone else) with a NS2 would be willing to record a simple MIDI file, I could easily check if the scaling and velocity switching between samples is the same or if it's different; just PM me.
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Re: NS3 Velocity and General Sound vs NS2

Postby aureliopenna » 12 Mar 2018, 17:38

Guys please forgive me I did a mistake on my last post.

Nord Stage 3 Sounds still Softer than Nord Stage 2! Please reconsider this.
My NS3 INPUT was on +4db gain and NS2 INPUT was on Lo Gain. When I put +4db to NS2 than its sounds louder than NS3.

The rest is the same perspective.
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