NS3 Compact tuning issue

[FZiegler]

By the way do search in the forum because this issue has already come up in the past.

It was in Summer 2020, and it was a quite lengthy discussion not perfectly solved as far as I remember. But worth reading anyway: post134167.html#p134167 With some interesting points for me.

[WannitBBBad]

By the way do search in the forum because this issue has already come up in the past.

It was in Summer 2020, and it was a quite lengthy discussion not perfectly solved as far as I remember. But worth reading anyway: post134167.html#p134167 With some interesting points for me.

Thanks for posting this. Most interesting is the assumption that a mechanical instrument such as the Hammond B3 could ever be "perfectly" in tune. Whether on a grid operating at a target frequency of 50 Hz or 60 Hz, the interconnection frequency is rarely at that exact frequency. Below is an example of grid frequency from multiple sources at a time when a large generator tripped offline and the recovery after other generators increased output. The interconnection frequency reflects energy production and energy usage - if the generators/solar aren't producing enough energy to meet the energy demand, frequency drops below the target frequency, if generators/solar produce more energy than is being consumed, the frequency moves above the target frequency. It's a constant balancing act for what we call "Balancing Authorities" in North America. Motor-driven, the tonewheel generator of a Hammond B3 has some inertia in its design so second-to-second frequency deviations aren't noticeable in what you hear, however sustained deviations in frequency (the chart reflects averages over each minute) affect the overall tuning of the Hammond B3 relative to a defined reference, such as A-440. The effect is typically not noticeable as the deviations are much less than 1 Hz, but put a Hammond B3 on a small barge or boat using a generator for AC, and you might as well be playing a calliope.

Frequency Dip.jpg (86.76 KiB) Viewed 2019 times

[Hlaalu]

I think there should be made a distinction though between out of tune issues caused by variation in the power source and variations in the upper octaves caused by the very mechanical nature of the wheels (number of teeth). Sure the variation in frequency would cause tuning inconsistencies, but the organ would be in tune "with itself" in any given point of time. The upper octave thing, on the other hand, makes the instrument intrinsically out of tune with respect of other notes played in the same moment. From the OP posts it seemed to me this is what he's experiencing. I do too think the last octave is a bit off in the Stage 3 in a way that's sometimes unpleasantly noticeable.

[analogika]

By the way do search in the forum because this issue has already come up in the past.

It was in Summer 2020, and it was a quite lengthy discussion not perfectly solved as far as I remember. But worth reading anyway: post134167.html#p134167 With some interesting points for me.

It was "not solved" insofar as Lefty's organs all seemed to be out of tune with all of the clones — indicating that his local power network frequency was slightly off.

What was absolutely clear is that the upper octave of all Hammond electromechanical tonewheel generators is actually pretty whack out-of-tune, and has always been since 1935 — because the tooling didn't exist to make those highest tonewheels be perfectly in tune.

This is documented and undisputed.

[LeftyBass68]

[mp4]

Hammond A102 top octave used here. Tried to upload the synth overdubs version .It's over the limit.The out of tune old Hammond I suffer with is not leaving soon.Will work long after the chips are in landfill.
Sailor Sailor by Gaye Delorme.To say this is inspired by the awesome majesty that is a real tonewheel Hammond organ from 1962 is an understatement.No dorky 'percussion' scales here,or wanna b jazz.Just tone mojo unavailable on clones.

[LeftyBass68]

...The out of tune old Hammond I suffer with is not leaving soon. Will work long after the chips are in landfill...

True. Many Hammond owners consider themselves simply caretakers of a beautiful instrument that will far outlast them.

[LeftyBass68]

Once I played the Nord Stage EX organs back in 2010,I became a big fan of the products.At the time the pianos were not quite 'there' like today's.I liked the basic synth so I 'made do' with the pianos to obtain an 'all in one' for convenience.
To say I am disappointed with the Stage 3 organs is an understatement.This Stage 2 EX88 has a better sounding Hammond.So does this twenty year old Electro2/61.Nord abandoned improvements to the Hammond model at least a decade ago.
Still using a 2009 made Neo Ventilator.That's where and when Nord was handed their homework,which they never completed,and have no incentive now to complete.
Still,at the price I obtained a C2D for.....a nice little clone with a small footprint that plays and sounds decent.Not going to replace any of these Hammonds.Good luck modeling a chorus generator type like this 1937 BCV.Way too big a file for Nord.

To say Nord no longer 'rules' the clone organ market is an accurate statement.Nord is a good product and well made.They just haven't kept pace with other brands.Comparing 'clone to clone' is total garbage.The only accurate method of testing is clone to A100,or clone to Leslie 122/147.Or clone to B3,or clone to Leslie 44W etc. Stating that clone A sounds more like an A100 can be verified.Just happen to have a collection of 'the real deal'.No Mojo or Legend or XK5 can even come close.
Might as well just play the C2D,it is not that far off a newer modern clone in tone.And it still has the best 1/4" speaker level output to drive a real Leslie with.That part they got right!

[LeftyBass68]

Today I tried the guitar samples again on the NS3.Fun to play and real time control so much easier than menu diving on the XV3080.A little XV PR:A:118 JC Strat and Lucina mixed in.That's an A102 and Ventilator.
Paraphonic Neutron synth with hard synced LFO mixed with overdriven Model D osc 2 input from same.The filter sweep on the NS3 is fine,syncing an LFO with these waveforms just not the same as Model D osc 2 input.
Which kicks a whole lot more,those Curtis chips gettin' er dun! Real analog done dirt cheap.
I enjoy the Nord Stage 3 organs,and they work fine.Maybe my ears are just used to the out of tune upper half octave of 192 tooth wheels.More an observation than a complaint.I do match up sinewaves when tuning before altering waveforms.
Any really high strings or other sawtooth masks the issue.It was easier to record the top octave of the A102 than the Stage 3.
The tuning differences will not dampen my enthusiasm for an 'all in one' gig keyboard,which remains a Stage 3 until further notice.

[analogika]

I think there should be made a distinction though between out of tune issues caused by variation in the power source and variations in the upper octaves caused by the very mechanical nature of the wheels (number of teeth). Sure the variation in frequency would cause tuning inconsistencies, but the organ would be in tune "with itself" in any given point of time. The upper octave thing, on the other hand, makes the instrument intrinsically out of tune with respect of other notes played in the same moment. From the OP posts it seemed to me this is what he's experiencing. I do too think the last octave is a bit off in the Stage 3 in a way that's sometimes unpleasantly noticeable.

Exactly, and this is where I believe Lefty’s “testing” failed — as there was already beating at 440Hz on his recordings (as far as could be discerned on the cell phone recordings), indicating that the entire organ itself was slightly offset. Which, as the graph posted shows, is perfectly normal.

My own B3 is a US-built one with a Euro voltage/Hz conversion kit that gets its frequency from a tunable oscillator, rather than the mains. Once I get it set up in the new digs, I’ll be glad to do a tone-by-tone comparison via line signal directly into the interface.

FWIW, aging tone generator capacitors tend to lose brightness, which makes those upper registers somewhat less obvious, but also removes much of the higher-frequency overtone crosstalk and loses some of the magic, while muffling the sound.

Some prefer this muffled old sound — check the “vintage” settings in the sound preferences.

My B3 is freshly refurbed and re-capped and has the old magic, but on the Stage 3, setting it to “Vintage 2” was key to getting the mojo I was missing from the Stage 2.

[LeftyBass68]

"My B3" is the 'money shot' in the previous post.Would like to see it Analogika?
The brightest generator here is a recapped 1960 A100.Other than the ability to 'play louder' on the top octave the tone is most definitely 'not improved'. Some previous owner did that one.
The one I recapped with Russian K42's is a 1937 BCV built in Montreal.Serial number N203,one of the first BC organs made.Not for sale....
I have pics of the major surgery like the TWG recap? There are photos of my work,a complete tear down of a generator that I replaced a pickup in.Yes they can be repaired.
Most just buy a solid state replacement from TrekII. I repaired the tone generator,left the wheezing tired caps in it,love the mojo of a 1960 M3!
Then there are subtle but real differences in Leslies. I prefer 'clean' to 'distorted'.The 122 will never keep up to a 147 or 251 or 760 in DB.This 142 sounds beautiful in a quiet studio setting or reasonable volume gig.
On a large stage I will use a non mic'd 147 or 251 to 'monitor', and send the Ventilator FOH on a DI.No mics ever! "What mic do you use?" answer is: none.
Comparing the Stage3/Stage2 organs is futility at it's best,clone to clone tests with no reference to a B3 TONEWHEEL organ are ,and the way 'it is' now?
The farther away from 1973 it gets,the less "Hammond' sounds to be compared.For at least twenty years people compare the clones with no actual real Hammond there to verify the pinata stabs'!
Folks who never owned,moved,played,or laid hands on the real deal go forth and find one to experience at least once,and make those comparisons from a 'real' point of reference.
Instead of recapping a generator I often use EQ.These rigs run line level or speaker level out.My 'go to' EQ is the same device used in Mushroom Recorders during the 70's and 80's.
Furman PQ3 preamp with NE5532 opamps replacing the 4558's.Tight Q at 45HZ,1/6 octave +10DB,flat mids,1/2 octave Q @5K +10DB is an average setting for a tired generator.Hasn't moved much lately.

I can verify all these tonewheel organs don't 'beat' when comparing tones 85/86/87/88/89/90/91. Hammond to Hammond they all play the identical pitch.If they are out of tune with clones, then the clones are considered in tune'? What?
The variance in HZ from the local AC in British Columbia is negligible at best.Home to some of the world's best rivers and hydro dams,those hydroponic grows need a lot of light......just sayin'.
I encourage everyone to listen to the top octave pitch on the clones.....it is different than any Hammond here,and there are twelve of them play in tune with each other any time of day or night,24/7/365.

Nord has contributed a big ZERO to the organ engines in ten years.Laurels can only be rested on for so long.My go to instrument is a 1962 A102 once used in the rehearsal annex for choir practice at a Catholic Church.
And like a typical North American,paid only 400CA for it.The soft case for the Stage3 Compact was more. I don't have the triple pedal or music rack or T-Shirt or decals on my 'flight cases'.
Great pianos,average synths,average B3 sims,where is Nord going to get back any mojo from 2010? The writing is on the wall for this outfit.Thirty years and counting for a boutique in need of a re-launch ?