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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby MrTobbe » 19 Dec 2017, 12:19

anotherscott wrote:
Quai34 wrote:On a real B3, the Reverb is before?

A real B3 does not have reverb, though some other Hammond models did. Also, some Leslie models had reverb. If you are trying to recreate the sound of a Hammond or a Leslie that has a spring reverb unit in it, your reverb needs to be before the rotary effect. But that is not an especially common Hammond/Leslie sound, since most Hammonds and Leslies don't have reverbs.


While it it true that very few Leslies didn't have reverb, I would actullay say that most Hammonds DO have it - ok the B3 and C3, and a few more models don't, but basically all consoles Hammonds with built-in speakers:

L-100
M-100
M-3
E-100
A-100
H-110

and others, have reverb built-in. In many of these models the reverb channel has it's own amplifier and a small speaker. Like in the 1965 E-112 that I have, there's a 15-inch speaker for the organ, and a 8-inch for the reverb. Then it is more or less common practice when you install a Leslie output in these organs, that you sum the main channel w the reverb channel, to have them both go into the Leslie.

analogika wrote:
cgrafx wrote:Actually Leslie models with Reverb in them had a separate reverb amp and speaker and was not routed through the rotating baffles. I believe all the "R" models like 122R had reverb effectively after the Leslie.

Hammond organs with internal Reverb on the other hand, would have added reverb to the signal chain going to the Leslie and that would put it pre-leslie.

The 122R does not have any extra speakers. It merely has circuitry that allows installation of a spring reverb into the case. It is still routed to the regular rotor and horn assemblies.


Hmm, cgrafx might be thinking of the Leslie 710. It had wooden cabinet like a 122, but transistor instead of tube amp, and it also had a pair of straight speakers on each side, for reverbs and other sounds - the 9-pin Leslie standard let's you send two audio signals into the Leslie, one into the "Rotary channel" and the other into the "Straight" channel. So if your organ had a 9-pin output support this dual channel configuration, it very well could have the reverb into it's own speakers in the 710.

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/Leslie710

https://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/ ... 785848.jpg

brane wrote:
analogika wrote:The default on any classic Hammond is to have the reverb routed through the Leslie.


I LIKE the reverb routed through the Leslie - must for Jon Lord & K. Emerson crazy effects :twisted:


Me too! It was a welcomed addition for me. :) It's so much easier to put a reverb after the Nord, than put a reverb before the rotary, which would require an external Leslie sim. I used to run my Stage 2 through both an external reverb and a Neo Ventilator Leslie simulator to achive the sound I wanted. Now with v1.32 I think the Hammond/Leslie sim in the Stage 3 sounds good enough on its own, so I don't think it's worth the hassle of bringing an external simulator anymore. I might use my TC Hall Of Fame reverb pedal now and then though.

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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound


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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby Valpurgis » 19 Dec 2017, 13:15

analogika wrote:
cgrafx wrote:Actually Leslie models with Reverb in them had a separate reverb amp and speaker and was not routed through the rotating baffles. I believe all the "R" models like 122R had reverb effectively after the Leslie.

Hammond organs with internal Reverb on the other hand, would have added reverb to the signal chain going to the Leslie and that would put it pre-leslie.

The 122R does not have any extra speakers. It merely has circuitry that allows installation of a spring reverb into the case. It is still routed to the regular rotor and horn assemblies.

But the 122RV has fixed reverb speakers as well as a 15 watt reverb amplifier. I have a 122RV but the amplifier is removed. Band like Procol Harum on occasions placed the Leslie off-stage and miced up the room reverb and sent it to the FOH. That gives a more realistic sound than a spring reverb thru the horn and rotor (in my no so humble opinion).
Last edited by Valpurgis on 19 Dec 2017, 13:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby anotherscott » 19 Dec 2017, 14:18

MrTobbe wrote:I would actullay say that most Hammonds DO have it - ok the B3 and C3, and a few more models don't, but basically all consoles Hammonds with built-in speakers:

L-100
M-100
M-3
E-100
A-100
H-110

Ah yes, the ones with built-in speakers! People so often talk about the speakerless B3 and similar models as the reference, where reverb was not included, but yeah, "self-contained" models with speakers were a different story. But yeah, if you put those Hammonds through Leslies regardless (as many did), then that reverb'd sound could find its way into the Leslie.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby analogika » 19 Dec 2017, 14:37

Valpurgis wrote:
analogika wrote:
cgrafx wrote:Actually Leslie models with Reverb in them had a separate reverb amp and speaker and was not routed through the rotating baffles. I believe all the "R" models like 122R had reverb effectively after the Leslie.

Hammond organs with internal Reverb on the other hand, would have added reverb to the signal chain going to the Leslie and that would put it pre-leslie.

The 122R does not have any extra speakers. It merely has circuitry that allows installation of a spring reverb into the case. It is still routed to the regular rotor and horn assemblies.

But the 122RV has fixed reverb speakers as well as a 15 watt reverb amplifier. I have a 122RV but the amplifier is removed. Band like Procol Harum on occasions placed the Leslie off-stage and miced up the room reverb and sent it to the FOH. That gives a more realistic sound than a spring reverb thru the horn and rotor (in my no so humble opinion).

Running the reverb through the Leslie is, of course, not about "realistic" reverb - it is about using the reverb as a creative effect in itself.

To be true to that idea, though, it really ought to be a spring reverb and not the realistic room simulations that are the Nords' onboard reverb. Still, this is better than what we had before - from the perspective of one who added spring reverb kits to all his Hammonds and uses them for atmosphere and effect.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby DanielD71 » 19 Dec 2017, 15:11

Best of both worlds would be to have both.
At least, if you need more reverb on a certain engine we could use different reverb per panel
and use a little amount of reverb on the other panel for the organ if you are only using one manual.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby BuckW » 19 Dec 2017, 15:52

I miss spring reverb in any form as much as I miss the Farfisa or disco.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby NordPH » 19 Dec 2017, 17:39

MrTobbe wrote:
anotherscott wrote:
Quai34 wrote:On a real B3, the Reverb is before?

A real B3 does not have reverb, though some other Hammond models did. Also, some Leslie models had reverb. If you are trying to recreate the sound of a Hammond or a Leslie that has a spring reverb unit in it, your reverb needs to be before the rotary effect. But that is not an especially common Hammond/Leslie sound, since most Hammonds and Leslies don't have reverbs.


While it it true that very few Leslies didn't have reverb, I would actullay say that most Hammonds DO have it - ok the B3 and C3, and a few more models don't, but basically all consoles Hammonds with built-in speakers:

L-100
M-100
M-3
E-100
A-100
H-110

and others, have reverb built-in. In many of these models the reverb channel has it's own amplifier and a small speaker. Like in the 1965 E-112 that I have, there's a 15-inch speaker for the organ, and a 8-inch for the reverb. Then it is more or less common practice when you install a Leslie output in these organs, that you sum the main channel w the reverb channel, to have them both go into the Leslie.

analogika wrote:
cgrafx wrote:Actually Leslie models with Reverb in them had a separate reverb amp and speaker and was not routed through the rotating baffles. I believe all the "R" models like 122R had reverb effectively after the Leslie.

Hammond organs with internal Reverb on the other hand, would have added reverb to the signal chain going to the Leslie and that would put it pre-leslie.

The 122R does not have any extra speakers. It merely has circuitry that allows installation of a spring reverb into the case. It is still routed to the regular rotor and horn assemblies.


Hmm, cgrafx might be thinking of the Leslie 710. It had wooden cabinet like a 122, but transistor instead of tube amp, and it also had a pair of straight speakers on each side, for reverbs and other sounds - the 9-pin Leslie standard let's you send two audio signals into the Leslie, one into the "Rotary channel" and the other into the "Straight" channel. So if your organ had a 9-pin output support this dual channel configuration, it very well could have the reverb into it's own speakers in the 710.

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/Leslie710

https://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/ ... 785848.jpg

brane wrote:
analogika wrote:The default on any classic Hammond is to have the reverb routed through the Leslie.


I LIKE the reverb routed through the Leslie - must for Jon Lord & K. Emerson crazy effects :twisted:


Me too! It was a welcomed addition for me. :) It's so much easier to put a reverb after the Nord, than put a reverb before the rotary, which would require an external Leslie sim. I used to run my Stage 2 through both an external reverb and a Neo Ventilator Leslie simulator to achive the sound I wanted. Now with v1.32 I think the Hammond/Leslie sim in the Stage 3 sounds good enough on its own, so I don't think it's worth the hassle of bringing an external simulator anymore. I might use my TC Hall Of Fame reverb pedal now and then though.


The M3 does not have reverb.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby cgrafx » 19 Dec 2017, 19:04

analogika wrote:
cgrafx wrote:Actually Leslie models with Reverb in them had a separate reverb amp and speaker and was not routed through the rotating baffles. I believe all the "R" models like 122R had reverb effectively after the Leslie.

Hammond organs with internal Reverb on the other hand, would have added reverb to the signal chain going to the Leslie and that would put it pre-leslie.

The 122R does not have any extra speakers. It merely has circuitry that allows installation of a spring reverb into the case. It is still routed to the regular rotor and horn assemblies.

My B3 and A100 have/had (the A100 was destroyed in a fire) spring reverb kits installed.

The default on any classic Hammond is to have the reverb routed through the Leslie.


According to the schematic the 122RV had a separate reverb amp and a single 6x9 speaker.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby analogika » 19 Dec 2017, 20:36

The RV, yes. The R, no.

Either way, none of the "classic" Leslies - 122, 147, 145, 760 - had a separate reverb channel. It was all through the rotor/horn or nothing.
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Re: Nord Stage 3 - hammond B3 Sound

Postby anotherscott » 19 Dec 2017, 20:46

analogika wrote:Either way, none of the "classic" Leslies - 122, 147, 145, 760 - had a separate reverb channel. It was all through the rotor/horn or nothing.

Right. The variable is then people who want to add reverb not for any way the organ might have sounded coming out of one of those Leslies, but instead want to add "room sound" or a reverb effect that might have been added at the production level in the mix. Musically, any choice can be valid. Though as it is, if you want to add reverb "at the end," you at least still have the option of putting the Nord through a reverb unit. With all the other clones out there (and workstations/synths that have clonewheel engines), I wonder how many process reverb before rotary vs. after, vs. giving you a choice.
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