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Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby wtibbit » 23 Nov 2022, 00:56

Me, too.

My only real disappointment replacing my Stage 3 Compact with a Piano 5 is losing the very useful MIDI controller functions of the Stage 3. I used those functions in my Stage 3 to control a Yamaha Motif Rack ES synth that contains Yamaha's fabulous PLG150-VL expansion board. With that board the Motif becomes a VL1-m synth - a holy grail of electronic wind instruments - and by using an EWI instrument or, in my case, a Yamaha BC breath controller and a suitable keyboard, you can very accurately replicate the performance of saxophones and other wind instruments. It is an amazing addition to a performance set up and makes a substantial difference on stage.

Unfortunately, the P5 is not suitable. The P5 is missing the aftertouch and pitch and mod controllers that must be used to reproduce the subtle playing techniques required to sound like real acoustic instruments. I searched unsuccessfully for a commercially available MIDI device that could add at least the pitch and mod wheels. The only reasonable fix for me was an unhappy one - adding another keyboard. With that difficult decision made my next task was finding one that met all my requirements for a stage performance set up. In addition to the controller functions required, a suitable keyboard for me for must not require a computer for power or other functions. To connect it to the old Yamaha synth it must have an old-school DIN connector for MIDI. And, it it would be nice for it to able to send patch change commands to the synth. A reasonably decent synth-style key bed, light weight and low cost were important, also.

After much searching and hands-on "test driving" here is the one that answers all my requirements: the Nektar GXP series. I picked the 61 key version to let me occasionally use it for some other purposes, but there are also 49 and 88 key versions available. At the $229 price I paid the GXP61 is an incredible value and completely answers my needs for an EWI controller.

This set up will do until Nord builds the perfect stage instrument for me.... a 73 key Stage "X" that retains the EXTERN section and adds aftertouch to the short version of the P5's excellent triple-strike key bed.
Last edited by wtibbit on 23 Nov 2022, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?


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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby dansnord » 13 Dec 2022, 05:44

I agree. The lack of aftertouch these days is a let down, espcially when spending top dollar. I have an old Kurzweil PC2r rack module with amazing orchestral sounds that are as good as anyhing I've heard today, and aftertouch just brings it all alive. Unlike you, I don't *need* it, but it's making my decision to buy a PIano 5 or Stage 3 a bit harder. If I end up wth a Piano 5, it seems a 61 key with aftertouch, better organs and syths would probably follow. But living in the city, I don't really have the space for two boards. All this proving yet again: you can never have it all (in one, anyway)!
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby GuiliClayder » 27 Jan 2023, 22:15

Can I allow myself to hijack this thread somewhat ?

I'm on the lookout for a digital piano to hook up to a DAW ; I'm not looking for a workstation with a built-in sequencer. I will be using VSTs, mostly from Arturia and/or Native Instruments. I would like a 88 key board with hammer action on the bottom and a semi-weighted 61 key MIDI controller on top so I have hands-on control of my DAW. That midi board will most likely be an Arturia Keylab MKII, or maybe the NI Komplete Kontrol S61, not 100% sure yet.

For the 88 key board, though, I'm at the moment torn between the new Studiologic Numa X Piano GT or the Nord Piano 5.
Now, I know the Numa has extensive MIDI functionality so it should be a no-brainer but you know how it is, you become enamored with something and it kind of gets stuck at the back of your brain. The Piano 5 is that 'something'.
I don't want a full MIDI controller with 88 keys because I want to be able to use it without a computer as well, so both the Numa and the Nord qualify. They both have more than enough patches inside, the ones in the Numa are very good, I think, and the ones in the Nord, well, we all know how good they are.

To cut a long story short, though : suppose I hook up, say, the Arturia Keylab's MIDI out to the Piano 5's MIDI in, could I use the pitch/bend and mod wheels on the Arturia to control the built-in synths of the Nord ?
Should I follow my heart and go for the Nord ? My wallet and my head say Numa GT, though ;)
Still, I'm sure I would regret not buying the Piano 5, unless you tell me its MIDI capabilities really suck...
Last edited by GuiliClayder on 27 Jan 2023, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby FZiegler » 27 Jan 2023, 23:57

If you follow your heart, you get what its name says: a stage piano. Not in the sense that it would do anything you expect from that type of instrument (that's the Stage) but in the sense of a stage PIANO. It just does this. In a very practical way. And what you call the synth section is just a sample player module that can adapt those samples to a certain extent as an addendum to the piano sounds. No multi velocity layers, no bending, no aftertouch, no mod wheel, just an automatic vibrato and an expression pedal, I think. Perfect for strings or background Ahs or a sampled pad. Not only internally, but also by controlling the engine from remote. I don't have a Piano 5 (yet, we'll see), but I'm quite sure about that.

Nords are very good at what they do but they don't do all the things some people believe. And it doesn't have anything to do with the price: There are very pricey watches around without any fitness tracking or even a stop watch.

I have no idea if the Numas are better for what you are looking for. But the Nord Piano apparently wouldn't do what you want: It's not a sophisticated MIDI controller, either.
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby maxpiano » 28 Jan 2023, 10:22

@GuiliClayder: as of today NP5 MIDI capabilities are very limited, it does not allow to dedicate one of its sections to an external master and PB/MW messages are not handled at all. They may change that on a future OS but no certainty about that so you need to make your decision based on what is the current reality.

The Numa GT is definitely much more capable both as a MIDI controller and as a multitimbral generator (any of the 4 zones(sounds can be assigned either to internal or external), keybed is also higher grade but sound generation is different and of course no one but you can say if you would like the keyboard/sound of NP5 or Numa better; bottom line it is up to yourself to decide what comes first in the choice: features or sound or... ?

And if budget is the limit but you want a Nord, with the cost of a NP5 (or less) you may get a used NS2 EX maybe, did you consider this option?
Last edited by maxpiano on 28 Jan 2023, 10:33, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby anotherscott » 29 Jan 2023, 01:45

It's a bit surprising that the NP5 doesn't recognize pitch bend over MIDI, because the recent Electros do at least to some extent, and the NP5 has more synth capability than the Electro!
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby GuiliClayder » 03 Feb 2023, 14:34

I've read online, on this forum and other forums that you cannot record the Piano 5's instruments (f.e. the White Grand) as MIDI in your DAW.

But I found this in the Piano 5 manual :


"RECORDING A PIANO 5 PERFORMANCE TO A
MIDI SEQUENCER OR DAW
Here is how to record a Piano 5 performance including any pedal
actions and parameter adjustments to a DAW or MIDI sequencer.
1 Set the DAW or sequencer to use the Nord Piano 5 USB MIDI
driver, if connected through USB, or the appropriate MIDI interface
if connected through the 5-pin MIDI connectors.
2 Set the DAW or sequencer track to route back incoming MIDI on
the MIDI channel set on the Nord Piano 5.
3 Set Local in the System menu to Off on the Nord Piano 5.
4 Select the Program on the Nord Piano 5 that you wish to use.
5 Start the recording on the sequencer."


So, on line 4, it says "select the Program on the Nord Piano 5 that you wish to use". Unless I'm mistaken, that means you CAN record the built-in sounds as MIDI. Or I must be dumb...

Also, how many of the available XL-samples can you load in the Piano 5 ? How many are installed by default and how much free memory of the 2Gb is there left ?
I'm new to Nord, so forgive me for asking these kind of questions...
Last edited by GuiliClayder on 03 Feb 2023, 14:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby Schorsch » 03 Feb 2023, 14:58

Hi,

just to avoid any confusion here - "sounds" in the sense of audio cannot be recorded as MIDI in general by a DAW, because MIDI tracks of a DAW just record events / control data but no audio signals. That means that you will record information like which key was pressed, at which velocity the key was pressed, pedal data and so on but not the sound itself which is produced by the Nord Piano. If you want to record the sound you would have to connect the outputs of the Nord Piano to inputs of an audio interface, and create an audio track in your DAW which ctahces the signal from the inputs of that audio interface and records them to the audio track.
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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby anotherscott » 03 Feb 2023, 15:31

GuiliClayder wrote:I've read online, on this forum and other forums that you cannot record the Piano 5's instruments (f.e. the White Grand) as MIDI in your DAW.

But I found this in the Piano 5 manual :


"RECORDING A PIANO 5 PERFORMANCE TO A
MIDI SEQUENCER OR DAW
Here is how to record a Piano 5 performance including any pedal
actions and parameter adjustments to a DAW or MIDI sequencer.
1 Set the DAW or sequencer to use the Nord Piano 5 USB MIDI
driver, if connected through USB, or the appropriate MIDI interface
if connected through the 5-pin MIDI connectors.
2 Set the DAW or sequencer track to route back incoming MIDI on
the MIDI channel set on the Nord Piano 5.
3 Set Local in the System menu to Off on the Nord Piano 5.
4 Select the Program on the Nord Piano 5 that you wish to use.
5 Start the recording on the sequencer."


So, on line 4, it says "select the Program on the Nord Piano 5 that you wish to use". Unless I'm mistaken, that means you CAN record the built-in sounds as MIDI. Or I must be dumb...

As Schorsch said, MIDI can only record events (keypresses, pedal action, etc.), not audio, and he described the alternate process for recording audio. If you record MIDI, and you want to hear the performance played back, your Nord must be connected to the computer, because all the computer has recorded are the instructions for reproducing the performance (it has not recorded the audio performance itself). This means, for example, you could record with White Grand, and if you decide that maybe you'd like to hear how it would sound with Royal Grand, all you have to do is change the patch on your Nord, and now when you playback the recorded MIDI, you can hear it with Royal Grand instead of White Grand. (And you can then record the audio for that version, if you'd like.)

In fact, in that list of 5 steps, all you really need to do are steps 1 and 5. Steps 2 through 4 merely serve to assure that what you're recording, when played back later (still/again connected to the Nord), will definitely sound the same as how it sounded to you when you played it. By selecting the desired piano in step 4, you'll be hearing what you expect you'll want to hear when you play it back, but as I said, you can change your mind later (e.g. turn a performance recorded with the White Grand sound into something played back by the Royal Grand sound, or vice versa). Also, IIRC, depending on your settings, velocity response may be handled differently internally than externally, so these extra steps 2-4 would be a way to assure that the velocity response between your performance and the reproduction of that performance are identical. I am guessing that this might be the reason those extra steps are there.

GuiliClayder wrote:Also, how many of the available XL-samples can you load in the Piano 5 ?


What you can fit depends on which ones you've selected. So for example, you can go to https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-lib ... hite-grand and see the sizes of all the grands, in all their variations. Keep in mind that your 2 GB (approx 2000 mb) also has to accommodate whatever clav/EP/etc. sounds you want to keep (not all of which have XL versions).

GuiliClayder wrote:How many are installed by default and how much free memory of the 2Gb is there left ?

I don't know what's there by default, but that doesn't really matter... it's arbitrary and can be changed (or re-created) at any time. Take out what you don't like, put others in that you like better, that's the point.
Last edited by anotherscott on 03 Feb 2023, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wish the Piano 5 Was a Better MIDI Controller?

Postby cphollis » 03 Feb 2023, 15:32

Having owned the NP5 for some months now, I've never seen it as a good midi controller. No pads, no wheel, etc. You can do better for $149.95. The NP5 does a good job of being a midi *piano* controller, though.

You can't record sounds directly through midi. Some piece of software is going to have to translate "note:84 key:on vel:124" and turn it into a waveform, which you can record. You can record midi events, and play them back through any midi instrument.

Tip: I use an older iPhone 8 with software that makes it an X Y Z (three axis) controller. It's sort of like a joystick in three dimensions for my left hand. When I am using the NP5 to control external sounds (infrequently), I can manipulate the phone to generate three separate parameters simultaneously.

I have found it cheap and effective, I can even do a passable B3 imitation using the B-3X software on iPad. In that case, the Z axis is leslie spin, Y axis is distortion/growl, and X axis push/pulls the drawbars between presets.
I think I have gear issues ....
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