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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
Caught red-handed, Mr. Count! I think I need to slink back to my day-job cube farm now... [wink]
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PScooter63 - Posts: 394
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
Please luts76 stop posting from two different accounts, as this is not allowed for administration and moderation reasons.
If you have a preference as to which one to keep, please send a PM to any of the moderators as one of the accounts will be deactivated shortly.
Thank you.
If you have a preference as to which one to keep, please send a PM to any of the moderators as one of the accounts will be deactivated shortly.
Thank you.
Last edited by Mr_-G- on 22 Feb 2020, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr_-G- - Moderator
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
CountFosco wrote:I think you're just being narrow minded. You've summarily dismissed the more likely explanation that there are two 44 year old aussie blokes with the nickname Luts looking at buying a Nord Grand at the same time. I don't suppose you noticed the telling factor that one of the Lutses loves the Nord Grand and the other one doesn't? You've gotta pay attention to the details PScooter.
Last edited by Schorsch on 22 Feb 2020, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
Regards Schorsch
Want to convert programs between NS2 and NS3?
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Gear: NS3C, NS3 88, KeyLargo, Vent II ..
Want to convert programs between NS2 and NS3?
Check this awesome website to visually view NS2/3 programs and re-create them on the other instrument!
Gear: NS3C, NS3 88, KeyLargo, Vent II ..
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Schorsch - Donator
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
Yes, it is me who posted under two different names.
I must have set up a seperate account some time ago and created a new account just recently. Somehow have used both accounts.
As regarding this statement " I don't suppose you noticed the telling factor that one of the Lutses loves the Nord Grand and the other one doesn't? You've gotta pay attention to the details PScooter.
I never said I loved the Nord Grand. I wrote one post asking if people thought the NG was worth 2k more than NP4, stating I hadn't played either.
I then posted again saying the NG shouldn't be classed as "non portable".
After then playing the NG, I said that I was underwhelmed.
It's all about money really. I wouldn't be underwhelmed with the NG if it was $3k. I would say it was solid value.
My point is that for $5500 it doesn't remotely approach value for money.
That is why I've decided not to buy it. I can buy a huge pile of gear for that money.
I'm currently eying off the Kawai ES8 which has the RH3 action. The same action as the NG.
I can get an ES8 for $1500.
That leaves me a whopping $4k ahead of the NG purchase.
For that matter, the ES8 actually has some very competitive samples of the SK (Shiguru) piano that are very useable. As well as decent EPs etc..
So, essentially, If I bought the NG for just acoustic piano playing I would argue I get 90% (or even more) close with an ES8 for $1500.
The main point here is that Nord is massively overpriced for what you actually get.
I would absolutely pay $5500 if something blew me away with sounds and features.
The areas that need to be mastered in the stratosphere of stage pianos (we are talking $2500 plus more than competitors) are:
1. Quality action- I believe NG has this already with RH3. However, possible improvements could be made with a hybrid wood hammer (ala Roland RH90 - PHA-50 action). The improvements may involve unacceptable weight gain.
2. Depth and quality of piano sampling. Enabling the subtlest ppp quality to fff. There is a massive variance between these two extremes. This requires
much larger memory which can provide the massive database these complex instruments require to be expressive, especially if it's "class leading".
A possible hybrid approach to piano sound using modelling and sampling (not unlike Roland's approach) "may" make the instrument more expressive.
3. Large variety of samples offered- somewhat already provided by Nord. For the huge dollars, there need to be a vast offering of different instruments.
I'm not bagging the Nord Grand for what it is. I think it is fairly capable as a stage piano.
What I am bagging is the ridiculous price.
The next point then is to say, okay what "should" be being offered for $5500 in 2020 as the most premium stage piano on offer.
I must have set up a seperate account some time ago and created a new account just recently. Somehow have used both accounts.
As regarding this statement " I don't suppose you noticed the telling factor that one of the Lutses loves the Nord Grand and the other one doesn't? You've gotta pay attention to the details PScooter.
I never said I loved the Nord Grand. I wrote one post asking if people thought the NG was worth 2k more than NP4, stating I hadn't played either.
I then posted again saying the NG shouldn't be classed as "non portable".
After then playing the NG, I said that I was underwhelmed.
It's all about money really. I wouldn't be underwhelmed with the NG if it was $3k. I would say it was solid value.
My point is that for $5500 it doesn't remotely approach value for money.
That is why I've decided not to buy it. I can buy a huge pile of gear for that money.
I'm currently eying off the Kawai ES8 which has the RH3 action. The same action as the NG.
I can get an ES8 for $1500.
That leaves me a whopping $4k ahead of the NG purchase.
For that matter, the ES8 actually has some very competitive samples of the SK (Shiguru) piano that are very useable. As well as decent EPs etc..
So, essentially, If I bought the NG for just acoustic piano playing I would argue I get 90% (or even more) close with an ES8 for $1500.
The main point here is that Nord is massively overpriced for what you actually get.
I would absolutely pay $5500 if something blew me away with sounds and features.
The areas that need to be mastered in the stratosphere of stage pianos (we are talking $2500 plus more than competitors) are:
1. Quality action- I believe NG has this already with RH3. However, possible improvements could be made with a hybrid wood hammer (ala Roland RH90 - PHA-50 action). The improvements may involve unacceptable weight gain.
2. Depth and quality of piano sampling. Enabling the subtlest ppp quality to fff. There is a massive variance between these two extremes. This requires
much larger memory which can provide the massive database these complex instruments require to be expressive, especially if it's "class leading".
A possible hybrid approach to piano sound using modelling and sampling (not unlike Roland's approach) "may" make the instrument more expressive.
3. Large variety of samples offered- somewhat already provided by Nord. For the huge dollars, there need to be a vast offering of different instruments.
I'm not bagging the Nord Grand for what it is. I think it is fairly capable as a stage piano.
What I am bagging is the ridiculous price.
The next point then is to say, okay what "should" be being offered for $5500 in 2020 as the most premium stage piano on offer.
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
I don't think Clavia Nord is making a fortune with the instruments they build. So I would never agree in saying the price was ridiculous.
At the same time I admit I wouldn't probably buy a Nord Grand neither. Unto now I haven't realized _the_ crucial gain for getting it. I've got a Stage 3 as an all-purpose epiano/organ and will get on with linking it to any piano master keyboard. Don't need more for the moment.
Of course, a Grand is a nice thing if you want to keep things together in the Nord world, or want a hq stage piano simple to use and reliable. It should be highly recommended if the money you have to spend for won't do you any harm. I in contrary will face another solution, and there are several out there. Yes, because of the price. But not because it's not worth it - it's because of my preferences and needs.
At the same time I admit I wouldn't probably buy a Nord Grand neither. Unto now I haven't realized _the_ crucial gain for getting it. I've got a Stage 3 as an all-purpose epiano/organ and will get on with linking it to any piano master keyboard. Don't need more for the moment.
Of course, a Grand is a nice thing if you want to keep things together in the Nord world, or want a hq stage piano simple to use and reliable. It should be highly recommended if the money you have to spend for won't do you any harm. I in contrary will face another solution, and there are several out there. Yes, because of the price. But not because it's not worth it - it's because of my preferences and needs.
Stage 3 Compact (Rev.B 2.1 - OS 2.60) - Kawai VPC1 / Yamaha CP33 - Hall of Fame & NeoVent2 - Behringer Flow-8 - K&M stands 18820+18811 / 18953+18952 - Samsung tablet with MobileSheetsPro & AirTurn Duo200 - QSC K8.2s / Fischer InEars
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FZiegler - Donator
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
Hi, Luts-
You have repeatedly made your point. You think the Nord Grand is too expensive for what it offers you.
Please, then, follow your bliss and buy something else.
-dj
You have repeatedly made your point. You think the Nord Grand is too expensive for what it offers you.
Please, then, follow your bliss and buy something else.
-dj
Last edited by DJKeys on 28 Feb 2020, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
I went through the following digital pianos before buying the Nord Grand (owned and tested):
-Roland FP30 (Owned. Great all-round budget board. Didn't like the button interface or the lack of dedicated line outputs).
-Roland FP60 (Owned. Same as above with a better interface and better onboard speakers. Ultimately sold it because I didn't jive with the EP sounds and like of sound design control).
-Yamaha P515 (Owned. Step up in quality and sound over the Rolands but I felt it was too limited in terms of sound design. The keyboard action was also heavy.)
-Yamaha CP88 (Tried. Great sound, but the action is too heavy).
-Roland RD2000 (Great action, clunky interface)
Which lands me on the Grand. I like it. Alot. There are a few things that bother me like no way to sync its modulation (delay tempo, effects frequency) to a master clock and that there are only two line outputs on the back. Nonetheless, it just sounds so good. The samples coupled with the action just feel more like a instrument to me. Plus, the interface is dead simple to use and encourages creative, frustration-free tinkering.
Is it too expensive. Yes, I think so. Roland offers alot more for the money. As does Yamaha. But, at the end of the day, it has a special "it" quality about it that Roland and Yamaha simply don't have. And I suppose that's worth something.
-Roland FP30 (Owned. Great all-round budget board. Didn't like the button interface or the lack of dedicated line outputs).
-Roland FP60 (Owned. Same as above with a better interface and better onboard speakers. Ultimately sold it because I didn't jive with the EP sounds and like of sound design control).
-Yamaha P515 (Owned. Step up in quality and sound over the Rolands but I felt it was too limited in terms of sound design. The keyboard action was also heavy.)
-Yamaha CP88 (Tried. Great sound, but the action is too heavy).
-Roland RD2000 (Great action, clunky interface)
Which lands me on the Grand. I like it. Alot. There are a few things that bother me like no way to sync its modulation (delay tempo, effects frequency) to a master clock and that there are only two line outputs on the back. Nonetheless, it just sounds so good. The samples coupled with the action just feel more like a instrument to me. Plus, the interface is dead simple to use and encourages creative, frustration-free tinkering.
Is it too expensive. Yes, I think so. Roland offers alot more for the money. As does Yamaha. But, at the end of the day, it has a special "it" quality about it that Roland and Yamaha simply don't have. And I suppose that's worth something.
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
This whole discussion reminds me of something Chuck Hollis has written about more than once. He was addressing powered speakers, but the same principle applies to a lot of things in the real world, including EPs. He observed that a speaker costing twice as much as another will sound better, but not twice as good. "As price points go up, things get better, but not linearly so." https://chucksblog.typepad.com/late_blo ... ts12a.html
Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
Twice as expensive is easy to measure. Twice as good is not.
Nord Grand, Nord Wave 2, Yamaha YDP-184, Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Studio Logic SL88 Grand, Pianoteq 7 Pro, Garritan CFX, Teenage Engineering OP-1, and a smattering of Ukuleles.
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musicaldudeist - Posts: 102
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Re: Underwhelmed by Nord Grand
You're absolutely right, of course, in a technical sense. On the other hand, I believe that Chuck wasn't speaking mathematically but qualitatively, using a subjective comparison in order to make an informed point. That point, at root, is much akin to the well-known and frequently-observed Law of Diminishing Returns. Yes, Chuck's comparison is subjective, but subjective opinions from knowledgeable sources are useful, and on that point I'm like Justice Potter Stewart, who said that, although he couldn't precisely define obscenity, "I know it when I see it."
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