I'm Thinking About Giving Up on Nord

[jimmyjam]

An interesting - and perennial - discussion; it's a great irony that one of Nord's strengths lies in its AP sounds, but they're nearly impossible to achieve outside of studio headphones. I've been chasing the best live (stage) sound ever since I got a Grand a couple years ago; I'm currently using the Motion Sound KP-610SX as the least objectionable option, but it's far from satisfying. I'll run through the house PA if it's decent. At home I play with a pair of the small iLoud studio monitors, and it sounds much better through them than the Motion Sound. I know it's not what you're after, but just offering moral support for this frustrating quest!

[maurus]

You might be in for a complex quest to get that seamless integration of acoustic pianos into an otherwise electric setup, at home.

I can't offer much specific help here, but I tend to agree with some others that you should mainly eliminate factors that cause dissatisfaction. Anotherscott may have a point that the room itself causes some of the disagreeable sound. In your situation I might tend to develop the setup toward a near-field listening situation rather than improve the acoustics for the entire room (others have pointed in the same direction). For near-field listening, too much power may also be an issue.

At the same time, and since you seam to have the necessary means, why don't you check out one of these Yamahas - just to be sure that this is not the easy solution? (For me it never was, but I am not in your situation. Others, such as Dave Ferris, eventually gave up on the Nord pianos. But he, too, is in a very different, strongly Jazz-centric situation with performance aspects...)

Good luck!

[cgrafx]

Both the TT08 and the Focus are tops only. Even though the Focus says its frequency response is from 35hz to xxx, it appears that there is a pretty steep fall-off at 60hz, which coincidentally is about the same low-end limit of the TT08s.

Both the TT08 and the Focus are simply not designed to produce low-frequency content. I don't care what is posted on the spec sheet, physics says they simply do not push enough air. The standing wavelength of a 100hz signal is 11.30ft. A 60hz signal is 18.80ft. Sub-woofers are physically big for reason. When you have such a small speaker trying to create big waves, it takes time/distance to develop.

Headphones and IEM's get around the bass response issue by being physically close-coupled to your head. When you lose that coupling you lose all the bass response.

I have a pair of KRK v8s that I use in my studio. I also have a KRK subwoofer, because the V8's by themselves don't push enough air to carry the lower frequency content (particularly in close proximity)

[Gambold]

You know, the final response to the problem of not getting perfect AP sounds is - get yourself an acoustic piano.

Of course, those aren't always a picnic either. They have to be tuned often, they can have flaky keys, warped woods, sound weird in places, and are giant pieces of furniture that can't really be moved anywhere. And when it comes time to dump it - you will pay someone to take it unless it's a five-digit piano. It could be argued that "real" acoustic pianos are greatly over-rated as an instrument, especially if you principally listen to or perform popular music. Wonderful for Chopin in the auditorium. Not so much for Walk the Moon at the local sports bar.

I've owned and clunked on a lot of digital pianos over the years, and I keep coming to the conclusion that Nord still has the best AP sampling out there. My own sound rig is QSC powered speakers, that I run via a 6-channel Yamaha mixer. It's all pricey, heavy and annoying, but this is digital and that's what it takes. It's not perfect but I play in pop bands and the audience seems happy enough. I'm usually put into FOH but I'd sooner trust my dog than a sound guy to get keyboard mixing right, so I bring at least one QSC on a pole to any gig. Playing alone I usually use headphones or studio monitors. Then I'm more focused on learning and not making mistakes so the purity of the sound replication is not a big issue.

One other consideration is the keybed. Nord has been blasted for many years for its crummy EP sounds - I think any sound flaws those may have are mostly due to the Fatar keybeds that Clavia insists on using, and apparently will until the end of time. It's entirely possible that any flaws you hear in the replication of an AP sample are due to inadequacies of the Fatar keybed.

[Gambold]

> I’m simply trying to get sounds that are of comparable quality to the demo’s Nord offers on its website<

I've long given up depending on those for any kind of decision making about what samples sound good or not. That Nord gives zero information on how those demos are made is part of the reason. And who knows how much treatment they've received after recording. It's a sales site, after all.

[Swampfox]

Of course, those aren't always a picnic either. They have to be tuned often, they can have flaky keys, warped woods, sound weird in places, and are giant pieces of furniture that can't really be moved anywhere. And when it comes time to dump it - you will pay someone to take it unless it's a five-digit piano. It could be argued that "real" acoustic pianos are greatly over-rated as an instrument, especially if you principally listen to or perform popular music. Wonderful for Chopin in the auditorium. Not so much for Walk the Moon at the local sports bar.

That's a bit overstated. A good piano holds tuning, and should only need to be tuned once a year, maybe twice/year, or whenever it's moved into a new environment. Flaky keys, warped woods, weird sounds are hallmarks of mistreated, antiques, or instruments not kept in humidity stable environments. I agree that they are not portable, and only Grand pianos hold their value. The furniture thing is a double edge sword; believe it or not, some people buy pianos just for that reason (usually with autoplay installed).

[tetra]

You know, the final response to the problem of not getting perfect AP sounds is - get yourself an acoustic piano.

In the OP, he mentions having a Steinway B. So I think he has this covered.

[Gambold]

Hmm. It still begs the question: why do we seek to perfectly emulate an acoustic piano with a digital keyboard and an electric sound system?

After all, up until the 1980s, that was never even possible. If you wanted to record or perform with an instrument that sounded like a piano, you used a piano. The electric world was comprised of Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Hammond, Pianet, Clavichord...take your pick. All of these were plugged into mostly crummy amplifiers meant for guitars...the Leslie would be an exception, but it had a very specific application.

In the 80s with the Casio revolution and then the DX7, digital sounds took over for awhile and New Wave especially is filled with them. Indeed, the pop music of the 1980s is refreshing for that very reason - the sounds are all quite new. No one is vamping on grand pianos like they did endlessly in the 70s. THEN, something funny happened. I'm not sure when it started, but it became a quest in the music industry to recreate the sound of an acoustic piano as accurately as possible with a digital keyboard. And not just with the instrument, but with the speakers too.

Now we have companies like Clavia and Yamaha (and software companies of course) that continue to release samples or programs that are ever-closer in sound to a real piano. Why? Most modern pop music doesn't use raw acoustic pianos, and even the jazz players we see on Nord videos are using heavily effected sounds. Why are we all trying to sound like we are playing a centuries-old instrument for music that almost is never recorded with one?

So unless you are playing a Beethoven sonata and want to sound like you are sitting in a Conservatory somewhere...I don't see the point of aping acoustic pianos. Or at least getting frustrated that the imitation is obviously that. If you are that old-timey that nothing does it for you like tinkling the actual ivories - then tinkle the actual ivories. Leave the speakers and transistors for the music that uses them.

[catosim]

Wisely said, Gambold

[Swampfox]

Hmm. It still begs the question: why do we seek to perfectly emulate an acoustic piano with a digital keyboard and an electric sound system?

After all, up until the 1980s, that was never even possible. If you wanted to record or perform with an instrument that sounded like a piano, you used a piano. The electric world was comprised of Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Hammond, Pianet, Clavichord...take your pick. All of these were plugged into mostly crummy amplifiers meant for guitars...the Leslie would be an exception, but it had a very specific application.

In the 80s with the Casio revolution and then the DX7, digital sounds took over for awhile and New Wave especially is filled with them. Indeed, the pop music of the 1980s is refreshing for that very reason - the sounds are all quite new. No one is vamping on grand pianos like they did endlessly in the 70s. THEN, something funny happened. I'm not sure when it started, but it became a quest in the music industry to recreate the sound of an acoustic piano as accurately as possible with a digital keyboard. And not just with the instrument, but with the speakers too.

Now we have companies like Clavia and Yamaha (and software companies of course) that continue to release samples or programs that are ever-closer in sound to a real piano. Why? Most modern pop music doesn't use raw acoustic pianos, and even the jazz players we see on Nord videos are using heavily effected sounds. Why are we all trying to sound like we are playing a centuries-old instrument for music that almost is never recorded with one?

So unless you are playing a Beethoven sonata and want to sound like you are sitting in a Conservatory somewhere...I don't see the point of aping acoustic pianos. Or at least getting frustrated that the imitation is obviously that. If you are that old-timey that nothing does it for you like tinkling the actual ivories - then tinkle the actual ivories. Leave the speakers and transistors for the music that uses them.

One reason is that there is a huge market for instruments for students. People with children or young adults with less resources want an instrument that sounds and feels like a piano and that expectation is reinforced by their teachers. Many of those customers don't have the room or money for an AP, especially if you are not sure your kid is going to stick with it. Granted all those instruments are priced much more affordably than those priced for gigging or professional adult musicians. Yet, Once that expectation is established in the market it is very difficult to successfully sell a 'full featured' instrument geared for experienced musicians that does 'less' than a lesser model. Additionally, portability is extremely important for all but the most successful players that have more control of what resources that are available on stage.