Nord's classical Virtual Analog Synth Nord LEAD 1/2/2x/3/4/A1 and Nord Rack versions

Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby andyandyandy » 05 Mar 2018, 23:20

Hello people I state that I love the nord lead series ( in fact I have 4 nord ) but I was shocked by the sound of the nord lead 1! :o
I've got that since two weeks and I never expected such a blow, I own nord lead A1, nl4, nl2x and in deed nl1.
I do not know what happened next but the sound coming out of it is wonderfully fat and brilliant!
I also love my other nord but the nl1 is definitely (limitations aside) the biggest north I've heard so far.
Sorry for my english!
Andrea
Last edited by andyandyandy on 05 Mar 2018, 23:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!


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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby uzivogo » 06 Mar 2018, 12:20

Hi Andrea,
I bought my A 1 after I bought a Stage 3.
I use it as a second keyboard.
And I was bored about this sample based synths.
Before I used a motif from Yamaha .
Everytime when I switch on my A 1 I have the same feeling than you.
I am so happy with this synth. Ok, there are some things on the wish list.
Discussed already here in this forum.
And: It is so small and light, easy to carry.
I love it!
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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby andyandyandy » 06 Mar 2018, 15:52

Hello thank you for the comment. I also love the Nord lead A1, but in this post I was referring to the Nord Lead 1
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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby uzivogo » 06 Mar 2018, 23:22

Oh - why I did nor read your Post careful. Sorry.
Anyway , we both are fascinated by Nord machines.

Keep on enjoying ;-))))
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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby MiKeRoLLe » 09 Mar 2018, 23:37

hi andy,
can confirm your impression with the NL1, i'm also still touched by this unique sounding machine.
Very powerful and assertive, some say because of the then used converters, idk.
The drummode sequenced with an Beatstep Pro was my last session with the NL1.

Have fun with your 1 and try the pelle-mode some day ;-)
Clavia NR 1/3/4

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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby andyandyandy » 10 Mar 2018, 23:46

Hello thanks for the reply!
I've heard a lot about converters and they're probably the cause, but I found this article very interesting about the real difference of the first nord with the successors:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... ot-2x.html

Ps: pelle mode? :?:

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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby andyandyandy » 10 Mar 2018, 23:56

He says:

Ok I'm quoting David Hobson from "Synthesizer Freaks" group from FB.

"Worked for Sam Ash Music off and on from 1994 to 1998 in Lyndhurst, Ohio (I would take long sabbaticals.) I bought my Nord Lead 1 there at a discount since I was the keyboard department answer man (Warren Harris, aka 'Hanna' and I were the Keyboard department team for a space.)

When the Nord Lead 2 hit the market two years later we both sat down in the mixer/monitor booth and listened to the Nord Lead 2.
Warren and I looked at each other and wondered what the heck happened to the sound people were calling 'magical' in electronic music/keyboard magazines.
Warren suggested we call Clavia in Sweden, and so I did; and back then you could call just about anyone and even speak to the designers...unbelievable, right? Wrong. It was commonplace seeing that we had a direct line to most synth companies at that time. I still have that old book of numbers.

I called Clavia and my call did not go to some receptionist, but directly to Hans Nordelius....*as I recall*; because I could not make out how he pronounced his name. Regardless, the guy was definitely in charge, and was either Hans Nordelius or Mikael Carlsson. You see, at that time there was no enormous, impenetrable Clavia fortress.

I identified myself and my store and he asked me how the sales were going at Sam Ash. I then immediately asked him about the Nord 1, and the Nord 2; and what the heck happened to the sound.
He very nicely explained that there was a substantial and necessary change to the audio engine in the Nord Lead 2 because Peter 'Pelle' Jubel left Clavia to start up what became Propellerheads, and they could not use most of his audio engine designs due to 'licensing', in his words.

Not only this, but Peter 'Pelle' Jubel and the other two team members which comprised the design team of Reason went on to win the 2002 MIPA because of Peter Jubel's groundbreaking processing design work which he took with him even before the Nord Lead 1 was released in 1995. Actually, he designed the audio engine and almost everything board-level back in late 92 according to the recollection of person on the other end of the phone.

Now, people have been going back and forth since then about the DAC's, and the so-called OP amp differences for years (lol), and things most people don't care about...all of this talk without actually pushing for more information.
And I began to question myself AND my memory of my phone call to Clavia in 1997 knowing that synth pros like Mark Vail did not really get into detail about these things. So...

I phoned Sweden almost exactly a month ago @5am EST (USA time) and spoke with...
*Johan Eckerblad, the hardware service manager at Clavia for the past 7 years. He not only confirmed everything I remembered from 1995, but he also gave me more insight into what is important to people like Johan, me, and individuals who live for the minutia of synthesizers.

Johan Eckerblad informed me that several individuals had called him from time to time from the States and Europe about this very topic, and that they had a Nord Lead 1 in the Clavia studio that he did a careful analysis of against the sound of the other Nord Leads relevant to the Nord Lead family in question. Johan did not hesitate to explain the very different audio engine designs of the Nord Lead 1 and the consecutive Nord Leads.

We then spoke about board-level repair issues seeing that I've been trying to obtain a service manual (schematics) for the Nord Lead 1 for years; and now I am studying analog and digital circuit repair, and will be studying in New York beginning in May.
I own a Nord Lead 1, and I want to repair Nords when I begin to take on more work.
Unfortunately, Johan informed me there was no service manual, but that I would have to call him for real-time troubleshooting if and when I needed to repair a Nord Lead 1.
He also recommended a nice fellow in California who has to do the same; Call Johan for board level repair questions.

So not only are the DACs different in the Nord, but the whole sound engine is different…plus a few other bits I’d rather let people find out for themselves.

If anyone wishes to dispute these facts, just pick up the phone, call Sweden, and ask to speak with Johan Eckerblad in Hardware. The Phone number to Clavia is on their website.
(Make sure to tell them you are a technician…the woman on the phone is very strict…)

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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby andyandyandy » 10 Mar 2018, 23:58

Yes I understand Pelle mode! Thanks! :)
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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby ricard » 31 Mar 2018, 02:08

My $0.02 worth: A then-long-time NL2 owner, I was asked to service a NL1 (it was a simple replacement of one of the output connectors which had been wrecked at some point), and was intrigued to check if there was any substance to the rumors floating about that the NL1 sounded vastly different (and better) than the NL2. (The NL1 was equipped with version 2.x firmware - are there even any 1.x NL1's floating around nowadays)? So I connected both up to my DAW and played a few things with identical patches, and sure enough, there was a difference, the NL1 did sound fatter especially on bass sounds ... until I by mistake flipped the phase on the playback, and then suddenly the NL2 started sounding the fatter of the two. So what was going on here?

Well, I took a closer look at the waveforms in a waveform editor, and it turns out that the phase of the NL2 is inverted compared to the NL1. In other words, an upward going sawtooth on one will be a downward going sawtooth on the other. After some research on the internet I found that this can make a difference especially when it comes to bass sounds, as the different motions of the loudspeaker cone actually affect the air differently (when the cone is pushing the air the pressure gradients are different from when sucking the air). The effect is more noticeable in headphones. So I made a couple of new recordings, this time flipping the phase on one of the two Leads. And this time I couldn't hear any difference. Went through the whole range of factory patches in bank 0, and the only sounds that sounded different were the ones where the parameters between the 1 and 2 don't match completely; for instance, the 1 only has keyboard filter tracking on/off whereas the 2 has it settable in thirds.

So having debunked that myth (although a former Clavia tech told me that the NL1 requires adjustments to the DAC, and if these are off the output will contain distorsion, which some may find pleasing; in contrast, the NL2 has no adjustments as it has different (better) DACs), I later went on to compare the NL2 and NL2X. I tried various configurations, even playing one from the other to get the same keyboard feel. Again I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever, to my ears they sounded identical. Myth #2 debunked.

Then again, my ears are certainly not perfect, but with some folks claiming there's a world of difference between the 1, 2 and 2X I was bound to hear some difference I figured.

Now, I don't really want to dispute what someone has been told by a Clavia tech, but I do find it very odd that the NL2 and NL1 would have different sound engines due to licensing reasons. When you work for a company, the work you do during that time is owned by the company, it would be a very unusual arrangement (and potential suicide (for the company)) if that were not the case. After all, both the NL2 and NL1 contain 'Pelles mode', which surely would have gone out the window had the 2 had a different sound engine from the 1. In fact, the fact that 'Pelles mode' is still in the 2 strongly points to that the firmware is virtually identical to the 1, save for a couple of minimal changes. The 2X I would expect would have larger differences, considering that it doesn't have 'Pelles mode' - personally I think the people at Clavia didn't realize it was in the 2 and it wasn't until the 2X that they actually found it and removed it.

Then again ... one shouldn't dispute what apparently comes from the horses mouth ... on the other hand, I've been assured by a Clavia tech in another forum that the 2X firmware is identical to the 2, which it very obviously is not - the 2X has no PCMCIA slot and larger patch memory - the whole discussion ended up in a heated debate of what constitutes a 'difference' when it comes to software, i.e. that the apparent differences did not constitute a 'different' firmware, in the same way that two computers can be running 'Windows 7' even though they are actually different versions. I could imagine that Clavia rather than admit that they'd mistakingly flipped the phase on the 2 decided to go with an official explanation that the sound engine was different for reasons beyond their control, which would put an end to the debate.

At any rate, anyone who can analyze the waveform from the 1 and the 2 can verify the phase inversion, and it should be fairly obvious when listening especially to bass sound and in headphones. If there are more differences to the sound than that then my ears can't detect them anyway, but your mileage might vary.
Last edited by ricard on 31 Mar 2018, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nord Lead 1 Fat sound!

Postby Mr_-G- » 31 Mar 2018, 13:32

Thanks for the really interesting post. You read virtually everywhere that the ear is not sensitive to phase, but the suggestion that the mechanics of the speakers play a different role is interesting.
I set to try some of this in Audacity:
Half the wave is a 40Hz saw tooth and the the other half is the inverted phase. If I set this to loop in Audacity (shift+space) I can feel a difference between the two. There is a bump where the phase changes, and the 2nd half appears to sound different. Like if there is an additional low frequency added. I wonder if others feel this too.
non-smooth.wav
(258.44 KiB) Downloaded 230 times

But when the transition is smoothed, the effect seems to disappear.
smooth.wav
(258.44 KiB) Downloaded 213 times

So I wonder what is going on here. Perhaps some psychoacoustic effect or auditory illusion, e.g. the transient of the non-smooth transition fools the ear into thinking that the 2nd half is different than the first (well, it is, but are we really hearing it?). Then, by having a smooth fade out-in that effect is not there anymore?
I tried recording and looking at the spectrum (I would expect to see the difference that the speakers make) but I can't see anything (maybe the setup I used is not sensitive enough, certainly it is not "experimental conditions" grade). You can see at the bottom of the figure that the spectrogram looks pretty much unchanged between the thin horizontal lines which are the changes between phase polarity over time. I would have expected to see some alternation of the "extra" frequencies I seem to hear. :crazy:
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