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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 03 Jul 2019, 02:42

It's not so much that it's important for the management software to run on a beta OS. It's more that support for 32-bit apps on the Mac OS has been dwindling year by year. Apple announced plans for this years ago. Mojave, the current OS, is the last OS version that supports 32-bit apps, and that should have been a signal to app developers to make sure their software will still work in Mojave and any future OS update like Catalina.

To answer your questions, Nord should bother to release new software early and often to stay ahead of the curve. And anyone with a Mac who owns a Nord keyboard and relies on Nord software absolutely should care that the software Nord updated just a month ago will not run on any modern Mac after the upcoming OS update. Even in Mojave, starting up the Nord software would trigger an alert about how the software wasn't optimized for that OS. My Mac is six years old. I would have to buy an older Mac in order to get Nord's newest software to work. I expect better support than this for my $3K keyboard and the software that's meant to manage it.

The decision to join the public beta was mine, so I'm not placing all the blame on Nord. Software bugs are one of the risks of any beta. My point is Nord seems to have been asleep at the switch for years on the subject of moving to 64-bit architecture. Some communication from them indicating that they're working on updating their software would be appreciated.

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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man


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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby maxpiano » 03 Jul 2019, 08:25

@emelenjr: since you are a beta tester (so maybe also a developer and if so I presume you know programming on Mac OS pretty well), in your view how complicated would it be for Nord to just relink/recompile the existing source code of NSM and NSE in x64 mode? I am assuming not much, but I am not an expert on that platform so I would appreciate your and other's thoughts on this.

Thanks. :-)
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 03 Jul 2019, 12:51

maxpiano, I'm not a developer, actually. I'm participating in the public beta program for Mac OS releases: https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/

Fortunately, I don't have any recompiling work to do. I just like getting in early on these kinds of things! (And I like to think I'm helping Apple by testing their latest and greatest on a six-year-old machine.) The other software I need for my music rig is working fine, at least. But until Nord releases 64-bit Mac apps, I'm stuck with my current load of sound library patches.

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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby analogika » 03 Jul 2019, 15:11

emelenjr wrote:It's not so much that it's important for the management software to run on a beta OS. It's more that support for 32-bit apps on the Mac OS has been dwindling year by year. Apple announced plans for this years ago. Mojave, the current OS, is the last OS version that supports 32-bit apps, and that should have been a signal to app developers to make sure their software will still work in Mojave and any future OS update like Catalina.

To answer your questions, Nord should bother to release new software early and often to stay ahead of the curve. And anyone with a Mac who owns a Nord keyboard and relies on Nord software absolutely should care that the software Nord updated just a month ago will not run on any modern Mac after the upcoming OS update.

With all respect:

These betas are for developers to test their software, and they are moving targets. Putting a version out there now that might break two betas from now, requiring an update, and maybe another for the final OS, just means that there are a bunch of installations that won’t work despite having recently been updated. That sounds like a support nightmare WAY beyond "This software won’t run on the OS update you’ve installed and needs to be updated. Please check the developers' website."
As you yourself say, it’s absurd that software Nord updated just a month ago might not run on a modern Mac after the OS update. So by your own argument, it’s unrealistic to expect them to release any updates for maybe six months before the new OS makes it necessary.

If I were Clavia, I wouldn’t give a crap about whether a handful of enthusiasts running a beta for no good reason at all might be unable to run the editor software, and even if I had a version up and running, I'd keep it in internal testing and not release it until the OS was finalised, as well.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 03 Jul 2019, 15:40

Operating system betas exist so that bugs with software running on that OS can be worked out in advance, so companies like Clavia don't get caught with their pants down and Nord owners aren't inconvenienced when it's realized all of a sudden that the Nord software is completely broken. These betas are for the OS and app developers, yes, but also for the public. And that's a deliberate choice Apple made, making the beta releases available to anyone who wants to opt in. I frequently use beta versions of apps that test new features the developers are working on. You might, too. I'm sure everyone has used beta versions of web sites as well. Beta releasing is something that responsible developers do to ensure their stuff works.

Apple gave developers like Clavia/Nord years of advance notice. 64-bit apps are not a new thing, so I completely disagree with your notion that it's unrealistic for Nord to release a compatible update before it's down-to-the-wire absolutely necessary. Hundreds, if not thousands, of developers have already released 64-bit versions of their apps, and they've been doing that over the last several years.

Based on what Clavia released last month as updates to its Mac software, I've seen no indication that Clavia understands this issue or cares about it. I think it would be helpful if Clavia could be less opaque about its software development, along the lines of "We're aware that 32-bit app support on the Mac has been tolerated for the last couple years, but is ending for good with the next MacOS release. We're also aware that all of our Mac apps are 32-bit apps and they'll stop working on Macs running the new OS. We are/aren't working on this issue."
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby PScooter63 » 03 Jul 2019, 17:17

All this “beta” discussion distracts from the real point to be made here:

OSX-MacOS has supported 64-but apps since 2007, when Leonard was released. Twelve years ago.

I love Clavia, as my posting history will tell you, but waiting until the last possible second to get on board with the inevitable is not a good look at all. This comes off as the very opposite of a premium experience.

(Yes, my day job is software testing :D )
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby analogika » 03 Jul 2019, 18:56

Oh gosh, guys, really?

It boils down to another utterly pointless discussion by a handful of people who somehow believe that paying what they see as „premium“ pricing entitles them to a developer who informs them constantly about the state of future developments?

Are you guys on the RME, Apogee, and Metric Halo forums as well, complaining that the drivers haven’t been updated for the betas of Catalina yet or that the developers haven’t publicly stated that they intend to release updated software? I mean, come on.

Just because Apple at some point decided that the hype of releasing public betas outweighed the utter nuisance of having unqualified hobbyists making unqualified comments about incomplete software really doesn’t mean that third-party software developers need to join in the game.

Clavia has a vested interest in owners of their gear being able to use the software with the new OS, once it’s released.

IT WILL COME.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 03 Jul 2019, 19:45

Analogika, I'm sorry but you're way out of your depth here with respect to, well, everything.

"Clavia has a vested interest in owners of their gear being able to use the software with the new OS, once it’s released. IT WILL COME"

Says who? You? Not Clavia. All they've done is release software in the last month that still isn't future proof. As I've said, and as PScooter said before you, the idea of waiting until a final shipping version of the OS is released to the public before releasing your own software update is way too late.

This is a discussion forum and not a fan club, right? It's sometimes hard to tell around here. I'm a working musician, by the way. When I'm not on the road I'm a Software QA tester for a large multinational corporation. Hardly a hobbyist in music or software testing. Your dismissive tone speaks volumes. In fact I do talk to audio gear manufacturers when their stuff stops working. Or I look to forums like this one to see who else might be having a similar issue and if they've discovered a solution. As an example, a year or two ago, an app made by Behringer that my band was using to control our in-ear mixes stopped working when—you guessed it—Apple finally did what they said they were going to do and dropped support for 32-bit iOS apps in favor of 64-bit iOS apps. On a different discussion board I found out about a different Behringer app that had been updated, unlike the one that my band had been using.

If you're not reaching out to the companies whose gear you own when that gear stops working, I don't know. You do you, I guess.

We're getting off the subject that I started, so I'll bring us back: The bottom line is that Nord's software is broken for anyone using the newest OS (still in development) from Apple. Nord's response to me, via Pablo Mastodon, was "We are on vacation." Good job, everybody.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby analogika » 03 Jul 2019, 21:25

I apologise for the tone, but will point out that, at present, nothing has stopped working.

The only people currently up a creek with regard to Nord software are those running a beta OS — which they’re either running as a development testing environment for their own software, or as a hobbyist's playground, but surely not using as their primary production rig.

By all means, talk to manufacturers when their stuff stops working. But right now, if you’re complaining that stuff isn’t working on a beta OS, you’re just clogging up support lines and annoying people who'd probably much rather be paying attention to actual problems with the software they’re working on.

From the people I know doing software testing, they tend to be using internal beta releases of the software they’re testing, and those generally aren’t released to the public until the testing is done.

Are you saying that the company you work for does this differently, or just saying that Clavia should do it differently?

Obviously, it’s fine to look around forums to see if there might be a solution or alternative you’ve overlooked. But to assume that Clavia are just stupid or unaware of a fundamental shift in OS structure, or that customers are somehow entitled to being informed by PR of products under development, I find somewhat offensive.

We've had this subject before, with the Sample Converter. Except this time, it’s even more ridiculous, because the deadline is still three or four months off.

And even if they’re massively revamping the software suite and might not make the deadline: does anybody upgrade their rig on Day One? I know I need to wait at least three to six months until all my production tools are certified to work, every time.

Glad to hear the company is still doing the summer vacation thing. They’ve certainly worked their asses off making my Stage 3 a better product. I hope they’re set to put the finishing touches on the 64-bit application suite when they’re back and release it in a timely fashion.
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Re: Next version of MacOS probably doesn't support Sound Man

Postby emelenjr » 03 Jul 2019, 22:29

I realize I'm just shouting into the wind here at this point because nobody here works for Clavia, nobody qualified to do so can answer my questions, and anyone who could answer my questions is currently on vacation.

This point keeps getting lost whenever anyone here corrects me, saying, "But you're wrong—everything is fine because Nord is the best!" So I'm going to repeat it: I'm a Nord customer. I use Nord hardware and software. Nord's Mac software suite is broken for at least one customer—me—and it's broken for any other customer who owns a Nord, runs their Mac software, and is beta testing Apple's upcoming Mac OS release. Software developers in Nord's position benefit from hearing from users like me. I seriously doubt I'm the only Nord customer who can check all of those boxes. And if I am the only one, I'd love to know because that puts me in a unique position to be helpful.

In any case, don't try to tell me nothing is currently broken.

Since you asked, my company isn't very much like Clavia. We're only in the software business. We might have a public beta program for our apps, but I'm on the web site side and not the app side. And you're right—most of the testing we do is internal testing. However, when situations come up that affect our customers, we're as proactive as we can be about communicating with our customers, whether that's putting an alert banner on our home page, sending out emails, or whatever. It's not entirely unheard of for companies to be transparent, which is something I'd appreciate from Clavia.

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