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New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby theadman » 21 Feb 2021, 00:57

I'm playing a Stage 2EX 76. I love most things about the keyboard - awesome design and implementation, best Hammond sound out there, great synth/EP sounds, BUT...

The blogosphere is awash in comments about various dissatisfactions with the acoustic pianos, and I have had that experience as well. I just can't seem to find one (I've tried them all) that really sounds good in a live rock/blues band setting. It's not just me - here's a sampling of a few other comments that I pulled from the forum:

"I am struggling to use any of the grands: they seem to all lack 'presence'
"You asked about mono - in my opinion the Nord acoustic piano sounds do not sound good in mono."
"It does sound better through head phones than speakers."
"I'm finding the Nord piano sound quite hard work. All other aspects of the Stage 2 are fantastic, great Rhodes and Hammond, compact etc.. but the most important sound is proving difficult to get right on stage"

This is but a tiny sampling of a large body of comments that spreads outside of the Nord forums as well.

(Before I continue, I'll share that my own personal preference for live is Grand Lady D (Steinway) with the treble EQ moved to about 2:00).

But all of the pianos seem to have something... missing. They're often described variously as a bit boxy, muffled, muddy, especially in the midrange. Often I find the top end weak. It's hard to describe.

I think that the basic problem is that Nord is perhaps trying to be TOO good, too accurate. That is why they sound best with headphones or perhaps expensive and pristine audio equipment. (Which I don't have.) There is a lot of detail in the samples (including native reverb) that sounds good under careful headphone listening, but that simply washes away and detracts from the sound in a noisier live environment.

And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who plays in a noisy, loud, mono environment.

I see all sorts of solutions posted. I've tried most of them. EQ this, don't play in mono, switch to mono, change samples, etc, etc. Like many others, I have still remained dissatisfied, although that's relative. It's not that I hate the pianos - I just am having a hard time loving them. And I want to, because otherwise it's the perfect keyboard for live gigs. I'm playing through a QSC speaker. I see comments like, "don't use the QSC10, only the QSC8 or 12, othewise the Nord won't sound good. Really? Is the Nord sound that finicky? That alone points to something being not quite right. I have several other piano keyboards that all sound fine through the QSC.

I know this is a real 'thing,' because I don't see these sorts of comments, problems, possible solutions, etc posted for other manufactures' pianos. There's a LOT on these forums, however. Something is up with that.

I couldn't find the quote, but one poster said something like "If Nord would just come out with a good mono piano, all of this stuff would go away." ( Or maybe keep the stereo but listen to it in mono to make sure that it still sounds good.) I would agree with that completely.

So I would suggest that Nord do exactly that: put out a good mono piano that stands the test of people playing sloppy blues and rock in loud clubs. In other words, dumb it down. Just one (grand) piano! Strip the finer string noise, sympathetic vibrations, faint reverb, etc, and just put out something with an in your face sound that could then be tailored by the end user. Straightforward, clear, strong, and balanced across the keyboard. (Don't forget the highs!)

Music producers and sound engineers back in the day would take a song and play it back, not on state of the art speakers, but on AM radios, cheap speakers, automobile radios, etc. Because that's the way people were going to hear it in the real world. Pianos didn't need to have sympathetic resonance and detail, but needed to be simple, clear, and in your face. That's the one piano that I'm still looking for, and I think I'm not alone in that.

Thanks for these forums, and Kudos to Nord overall for an amazing machine!
Last edited by theadman on 21 Feb 2021, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
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New piano needed for live blues/rock


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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby Schorsch » 21 Feb 2021, 01:18

Hi theadman,

just for curiosity: have you tried a Stage2ex with a 88 keys fully weighted keybed? It made a huge difference to me in how the pianos sound compared to my Stage 3 Compact
Last edited by Schorsch on 21 Feb 2021, 01:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby theadman » 21 Feb 2021, 03:26

I’ve only played an 88 in a store. I haven’t played a compact, but I have a feeling that the HP action is probably pretty close to the 88. I see a lot of people not being too thrilled with the HP action, but it works fine for me. I love the board but long for that one missing simple, clear, up-front presence mono piano that I can bang away on.
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby Ton Beljon » 21 Feb 2021, 03:56

My stage 2 76 sounds great with two QSC 10 speakers! The acoustic piano’s also.
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby FZiegler » 21 Feb 2021, 04:11

... and what about some compressor for cutting through?
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby cphollis » 21 Feb 2021, 04:50

@theadman does have a point -- there is no factory-supplied piano sample that sounds good in that sort of situation: loud guitar blues band, sub-optimal amplification, etc. And a bunch of other stage pianos do have that. However, some of the factory-supplied presets can do a good job (e.g. Power Piano).

Perhaps the lowest-grade equipment I play through is my CPS SSv3. Not exactly known for its pristine acoustic piano sounds, right? But I can dial up a punchy, bluesy acoustic piano that stands out without too much effort: eq, compression, smidge of chorus, maybe a piano-like layer from the sample section, etc. I have a few different ones saved as presets.
Last edited by cphollis on 21 Feb 2021, 04:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby eibinger » 21 Feb 2021, 12:24

I am very sorry, but I have to agree theadman! I am relieved, that a NORD-user explains the problem in such a clear way. There is nothing to add, thanks!
This is the reason why I sway between my Nord Stage3 compact (also sometimes played via a Fatar TP40) and my Kurzweil Forte7.
And this is the reason, why sometimes my very old midi-modules YAMAHA P50m or ROLAND XV-2020 in band-context sound better than the great (and headphone-designed) Nord-samples.
A pure (MONO) piano out of my Kurzweil has more presence than the large Nord-Samples.
There is no difference, running the Nord true my YAMAHA-Mixer and my BOSE S1Pro.
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby mistral_73 » 21 Feb 2021, 14:12

Hi all,

Here we go again for the eternal and passionate "amplified acoustic piano" debate.
My very humble opinion/experience on this:
First of all, most of you have noticed the oxymoron amplified/acoustic.
Even with the best equipment, even with "miked" real acoustic pianos on greatest stages, when it comes to loudness, there's always some change, some distortion in the sound which NEVER compares with the feeling of you playing on the real thing. (I mean acoustic piano in a room). Nothing new here, many subjects on this on the net.
I once heared Chick Corea (RIP) playing acoustic piano on a large outdoor stage: Terrific playing, the master was there, no doubt about the talent. BUT, always with the "not so natural" coloured piano sound coming from speakers. I learned to accept this sound and enjoyed the concert a lot.
I think that most piano players can not go very further in quality than Chick Corea did this day.
Then, what we can pretend is the best compromised setup, which may vary according to our budget already reduced by Nord usual prices ;)
The sad thing is that we might call it "the less worst!", purists as we are.
The good thing is that listeners can enjoy you playing with this setup, yes, the less worst, even if we are not Chick Corea.
Especially when it comes to rock and roll thing, drunk dancers do not very care of the authenticity of the piano sound in the mix, believe me ;)
Now back to the Nord:
With low budget setup, I always had "acceptable" results with only one "middle quality" speaker (RCF ART) playing right output of silver/italian acoustic piano, NOT reduced in mono. I don't have the low frequencies well defined, but what I get with surrounding bass sound (coming from a sub, by exemple) is enough to compensate.
Of course, this is my personal solution, and may not suit your taste. I still have the feeling "it is far from what I can hear with good headphones", but with time, I accepted it and listeners enjoyed what I play (well, most of the time ;) ).

Still waiting for the magic gear solution, and enjoying what I have today

Best regards
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby nic cue » 21 Feb 2021, 15:32

Hello,
I play in a blues band, sometimes quiet, sometimes loud. I 'am just happy using the Blue Swede Upright (no eq) for that. It seems to me sound like an old Steinway (or a Steinway on an old record!). I use a pair of Yam DXR 8 as stereo monitor. Just enough good for me!! My ears are used like this; maybe that's why I can't find other piano sounds that match better with my taste for blues and blues rock.

And I'm also happy that I can use in more rich sounds like white grand or Royal Grand with decent head phones at home in the same times.

I have had an hammond SK1 several years. It has decent piano sounds that can cut into the mix; and I used it sometimes (when I could not carry my nord piano). But me and the rest o f my band far prefer the nord piano sounds...

(sorry for my english language, sometimes approximate!)
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Re: New piano needed for live blues/rock

Postby Rusty Mike » 21 Feb 2021, 16:13

... and the eternal debate rages on!

Upfront caveat: I don’t play rock or blues so I’m not 100% qualified to offer a solution for that context. That said, here are a few thoughts:

I also play a Stage 2EX 76, plugged directly one or two QSC K8.2’s, depending on the situation. When using a single speaker, I find I get the best results by connecting both 1 and 2 outputs into the two inputs on the speaker. I also own an original K10 and may use that for outdoor gigs, but take the same approach. Bear in mind that the K’s throw sound very well, and the sound from 20 or 30 feet away is different (and arguably better) than what you hear from 5 feet away.

I rely a lot on EQ and am rather dynamic about it; each space has its own personality and I tweak the EQ to accommodate that. Reverb is a big thing as well; too much and your piano gets lost in its own ambience. Keep it either very low or off, and if you do use it, use a brighter sounding reverb. Stay away from the Halls.

Sometimes a small mixer improves your control as sound quality as well. Something like a Yamaha MG or Mackie VLZ series.

On the rare occasion I need a piano that cuts, I go to the Silver Grand. It has a clear top end without being to crisp and retains some body.

A few months ago, I saw a video put out by Bonner’s Music about creating the “Elton John” piano sound. In short, it’s a combination of a more traditional grand layered with something bright like a Yamaha CP electric grand sample. Tony even used a Nord Stage as he was demonstrating it. It creates a full and bright, almost honky-took type of sound. To me, it sounds awful by itself, but seems to work pretty well in the “din of battle”, as Mr. Hollis likes to say.

Finally, I’ve read from others that the Black Upright works quite well for blues. I cannot attest to that, but just thought I’d pass it along.
Last edited by Rusty Mike on 21 Feb 2021, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.
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