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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Winds » 22 Jun 2022, 04:44

Hmm does the community here generally prefer an aux mix or the whole mix itself? But then that is probably dependant on the FOH engineer right? In other words if the FOH engineer is reliable an aux mix should be good enough... but probably to be on the safe side a whole mix is generally safer..correct?
Last edited by Winds on 22 Jun 2022, 04:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati


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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby DavidSydney » 22 Jun 2022, 13:03

Hi Winds,

Here's how I'd approach your situation.

I'll just re-state your goals to make sure I have it right:
• You're playing a single keyboard (NS3)
• With FOH sound being mixed by an engineer
• You want to use IEMs through which you can hear your own keyboard sounds as well as the rest of the band

Now the perfect solution (and the way a full-scale show would do it) is that the stage would have a monitor mixer (device) being operated by a separate monitor mix engineer. Specialised monitor mixers have the ability to create multiple individual mixes – ideally one for each musician, so you can have exactly what you want (plenty of kick drum and bass for timing, not so much cymbals so you can hear your own overtones etc).

The next-best, where there's only one engineer handling monitors on one or more Aux buses from the FOH mixer, is to get one of these aux mixes into your own local mixer to add to your keyboards.

To do this you'll need to:
• Send one (mono or stereo) signal from the NS3 to FOH
• Send a separate signal from the NS3 to a local mixer
• Get a monitor send or two from the FOH desk

You can do this split either with a DI box (which most sound system operators will have), something like a Key-Largo (overkill for this task IMO) OR send the standard outputs of your Nord to FOH (directly or, preferably, via a DI box) and use the NS3 headphone output for the local feed. You'll need a TRS to dual TS cable to connect the stereo headphone out into two standard TS sockets.

Rather than a Key-Largo which, as others have said, is focused on mixing several keyboards plus a computer, I'd go for a conventional mixer, which will invariably have a headphone amp to driver your IEMs built in.

With the local mixer (which could be the P4M already recommended, or just about any small mixer from Yamaha, Behringer, Mackie, Soundcraft etc), put your NS3 into one stereo channel and the monitor send(s) into other channels. I'd plug a microphone into another channel so you can hear what's happening acoustically around you. Mix to your taste. Note that you might get some oddities if the monitor mix you're getting has your Nord (the 'phase' issues mentioned), especially if there's anything digital adding latency (minor delays) in the system.

Depending on the mixer model, you could approach this in other ways, but rather than complicate things by trying to describe them, I'll leave it there.

While I'm posting, I'll just clarify the issue of balanced vs unbalanced cables. If you plug a standard 'guitar' cable (TS) into a balanced jack like the monitor outs on the Key-Largo, you'll convert the balanced signal to unbalanced. That's it. It'll work fine, with the proviso that you lose the noise-cancelling benefits of a balanced line.

I hope all this is clear and helpful. If anything needs clarification, please just ask.

Cheers,

David

[EDIT} By the way, my own monitor preference is for my keyboards to be just a bit louder than they ought to be in the final mix. I want to hear how they're blending with the other instruments and voices but also be able to hear any problems so I can adjust. I also sing, so I want my voice well up in my monitors with just a little reverb so I can pitch accurately without oversinging.
Last edited by DavidSydney on 22 Jun 2022, 13:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Winds » 22 Jun 2022, 13:57

DavidSydney wrote:I'll just re-state your goals to make sure I have it right:
• You're playing a single keyboard (NS3)
• With FOH sound being mixed by an engineer
• You want to use IEMs through which you can hear your own keyboard sounds as well as the rest of the band.


Correct!

DavidSydney wrote:Now the perfect solution (and the way a full-scale show would do it) is that the stage would have a monitor mixer (device) being operated by a separate monitor mix engineer. Specialised monitor mixers have the ability to create multiple individual mixes – ideally one for each musician, so you can have exactly what you want (plenty of kick drum and bass for timing, not so much cymbals so you can hear your own overtones etc).


Ok does this monitor mixer mean for example something like the Allen & Heath ME-500? But I think I read that... using this type of mixer could run into latency issues? My other question is, how can I be sure it can link with whatever mixer is being used, do I have to check for compatibility before something unwanted happens?

DavidSydney wrote:The next-best, where there's only one engineer handling monitors on one or more Aux buses from the FOH mixer, is to get one of these aux mixes into your own local mixer to add to your keyboards.

To do this you'll need to:
• Send one (mono or stereo) signal from the NS3 to FOH
• Send a separate signal from the NS3 to a local mixer
• Get a monitor send or two from the FOH desk

You can do this split either with a DI box (which most sound system operators will have), something like a Key-Largo (overkill for this task IMO) OR send the standard outputs of your Nord to FOH (directly or, preferably, via a DI box) and use the NS3 headphone output for the local feed. You'll need a TRS to dual TS cable to connect the stereo headphone out into two standard TS sockets.

Rather than a Key-Largo which, as others have said, is focused on mixing several keyboards plus a computer, I'd go for a conventional mixer, which will invariably have a headphone amp to driver your IEMs built in..


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in this case I can't control the individual instruments correct? I can only control the whole mix and my input level... is that right?

DavidSydney wrote:With the local mixer (which could be the P4M already recommended, or just about any small mixer from Yamaha, Behringer, Mackie, Soundcraft etc), put your NS3 into one stereo channel and the monitor send(s) into other channels. I'd plug a microphone into another channel so you can hear what's happening acoustically around you. Mix to your taste. Note that you might get some oddities if the monitor mix you're getting has your Nord (the 'phase' issues mentioned), especially if there's anything digital adding latency (minor delays) in the system.


Wait ok this I've definitely never heard... does this mean in this scenario you have all the instruments in the channel.. and at the same a separate channel for a mic so I can hear around me... um.. does that mean there's potentially a mic 'dangling' so I can hear around me in addition to the other instruments and my NS3 signal for my monitor mixer is this right?

Also I think I read somewhere that there are IEMs out there which allow you to still hear outside AND your monitoring at the same time.. so maybe there's no need for a separate mic in this case?
Last edited by Winds on 22 Jun 2022, 14:04, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby DavidSydney » 23 Jun 2022, 13:18

Hi Winds,

The Allen & Heath (and similar 'personal monitor mixers' from Midas, Behringer, Presonus and others) are a different 'perfect' solution, in that you have personal control of a mix of up to 16 channels. BUT, as you note, these all rely on a networked digital audio signal. Some of them are proprietary. None are universal. So I would only consider this in the context of a complete band solution.

And yes, in my 'next-best', you're limited to how many monitor mixes your FOH person can deliver.

As for the mic, you have it right. In fact at least one of the personal monitor mixers has some built in mics for this purpose. And you're also right that some IEMs allow some leakage of local sound. Sorry, I don't know brands.

A key thing with all of this is the nature of the gigs/band etc, which will determine the technical resources available. e.g. at the bottom end, there might be one Aux bus feeding a few wedges with a generic foldback (mainly for vocals). At the top end is your independent monitor mix engineer who will work with you to give you exactly what you want. In the middle are plenty of mixing desks with several Aux buses that can be used for monitors. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean you can have your own, but you can ask, and maybe share with another player (rather than a singer).

If all/most/some of your gigs are with a band that has a regular sound person, make that person your friend and talk through what you want to achieve. They'll know the limits of their gear and will (if they're any good) be happy to do their best for you. If you're working in different venues, with different bands and sound systems, you're pretty much going to have to take what you can get...which will probably be the one monitor mix. Festivals? Unless you're headlining, you'll get "The" mix.

Hope this is helping clarify things for you!

David
Last edited by DavidSydney on 23 Jun 2022, 13:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Winds » 23 Jun 2022, 15:28

DavidSydney wrote:If all/most/some of your gigs are with a band that has a regular sound person, make that person your friend and talk through what you want to achieve. They'll know the limits of their gear and will (if they're any good) be happy to do their best for you. If you're working in different venues, with different bands and sound systems, you're pretty much going to have to take what you can get...which will probably be the one monitor mix. Festivals? Unless you're headlining, you'll get "The" mix.

Hope this is helping clarify things for you!


Yes I think the great thing in my situation is that our network is extremely limited and I'm lucky to know most of the engineers in the major catchment areas. I tend to work with the same, sometimes different but generally like a.. rinse and repeat if you will. So I think the best thing I could do as well is consult with the sound people I tend to work with and maybe they could offer some good suggestions on what they'd be willing to work with so I can have a better idea on what I could pinpoint to buy. Thankfully I have a gig coming couple days soon so will consult and see from there. Will update soon on the outcome thank you very much DavidSydney!
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Winds » 15 Jul 2022, 15:22

Hypothetically if I got the Shure SE846, would it be overkill and a bit of a waste if I paired it with not so expensive mixer for example the Mackie 802? Like could that affect the sound quality? I believe however that after some reading around, in the case of say the se846 it shouldn't really matter, MAYBE there'd be a slight difference but nothing major and it should be fine...

On another note, I believe the se846 has never been mentioned in the forums at all which is curious...
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby M1tsos » 11 Aug 2022, 17:25

Winds wrote:Hypothetically if I got the Shure SE846, would it be overkill and a bit of a waste if I paired it with not so expensive mixer for example the Mackie 802? Like could that affect the sound quality? I believe however that after some reading around, in the case of say the se846 it shouldn't really matter, MAYBE there'd be a slight difference but nothing major and it should be fine...

On another note, I believe the se846 has never been mentioned in the forums at all which is curious...


All the shure in ears are not very good they are extremely overpriced compared to what you get for the price.. i mean the value for money is low..

Shure is a big brand for microphones .. at in ears you just pay the name..

For examble westone in ears are a lot better in quality in sound and in placement for the ear compared to shure and they are also cheaper..

With the money of se846 you can also go buy jerryharvey in ears or 64audio… i preffer the 64audio ofc

Now in any case you need a good in ear.. even a bad mixer will drive decent the good in ear.. the bad in ear in a good mixer will still be bad sounded so most important is the in ear
Last edited by M1tsos on 12 Aug 2022, 12:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Berretje » 12 Aug 2022, 10:22

ericL wrote:Hope this helps! I'll come back later with some pictures and further explanation.


Something like this?
ericL_IEMSetup.png
ericL's IEM setup
ericL_IEMSetup.png (52 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
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Re: A question to IEM users (not solo gigs) and recommendati

Postby Winds » 12 Aug 2022, 12:40

Berretje wrote:
ericL wrote:Hope this helps! I'll come back later with some pictures and further explanation.


Something like this?
ericL_IEMSetup.png


Wow brilliant! Thank you so much mod!

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