Nord User Forum

[gpalmer]

Hello, my name is Glenn P. I am a high school band teacher in my day job and a pianist/keyboardist in a jazz/blues quintet for my night job. I’m also a composer and arranger and have been a musician all of my life, highly trained at both the university and street levels.

In the near future I plan on purchasing a new keyboard rig from Sweetwater. I’ve got the money saved and I have been researching keyboards and talking to other musicians. I’ve been on line to the various keyboard forums, spent hours on the Sweetwater (and You-tube) web pages watching videos and sound clips, and now I need to make a decision and make a purchase.

But I need some help from my fellow musicians. I've read many posts and opinions on the Nord Users Forum, but I can’t decide on which rig I want to go with, and this is an expensive decision, and if you don’t mind, I would really appreciate some input. Before I present to you my three heavily scrutinized options and ask for your help, I would like to give you two more bits of information, if I could so impose on your time and expertise.

1) In my jazz/blues quintet, there is Keyboards (myself), drums, bass, and 2 saxophone players, one who doubles on guitar part of the time. With this particular set-up as the keyboard player, I provide almost the entire harmonic makeup of the group. This is a highly experienced group, and therefore, I need the best 2 keyboard option available that will provide:

a) The finest acoustic piano sounds known to the music world.
b) Outstanding electric piano sounds
c) Fantastic Hammond B3 emulations
d) A wide variety of fat sounding synthesis including synth leads, pads, brass, and arpeggiator options.

2) At 51 years of age and at this point in my life, I want the best available, and I want timeless instruments, something that won’t be out dated or antiquated in three years, instruments that will last for the next ten years. I've saved the $$, price not an issue.

With these two considerations, I have narrowed down my list to the following three options:

Option #1
Top Keyboard Korg Kronos X-73
Bottom Keyboard Yamaha CP-1 Stage Piano

Option #2
Top Keyboard Nord Stage 2-88
Bottom Keyboard Korg Kronos X-88

Option #3
Left Keyboard Yamaha CP-1 Stage Piano
Right Keyboard (Top) Nord C2D Organ
Right Keyboard (Bottom) Roland Jupiter 80

(The right keyboards will be at a 45% angle to the left keyboard on option #3)

I have eliminated the following keyboards either by playing at the local guitar centers, or by listening to and watching countless You-Tube videos:



Not in Contention
Roland Fantom G
Piano sounds average, organ sounds suck, synth stuff – OK, too menu driven, doesn’t meet criterion 2 above, this ax is already outdated - 700 of the sounds will never be used.

Yamaha Motif XF
Piano sounds are too similar to the CP1, but not as good. Organs suck even worse than Roland, good orchestral stuff, but lacks in the synth department, too menu driven, but not as bad as the Fantom in that there are individual buttons for the various instrumental groups. Great guitars, but I don’t use guitars. Average arpeggiator options, and again, too many unusable sounds to the working/performing musician.

Roland V-Piano
Too damned expensive, period, and too heavy (80 lbs.).

Kurzweil PC3K 88
Nice, but for me it took 2nd place to the Kronos. Electric pianos suck, very good orchestral, average organs, above average acoustic pianos. This ax doesn’t give me that “Wow” factor.

Additional Considerations
Kurzweil K-3000
Will there be a K-3000? And if so, how long before the release? And will this be good enough to put off buying the new Kronos X88?

Fantom V
Will there be a new Fantom V in the near future? And will it include V-piano and V-synth sound sets which would cause one to postpone buying the new Kronos X88?

Reasoning for Option 1
The CP1 in my opinion is the finest sounding stage piano available, a timeless purchase that will last for years without becoming outdated in three years. And as a jazz pianist, a beautifully crafted, balanced and useable instrument. Matched with the new Kronos X which provides fantastic synth stuff, a very good Korg C3 organ, and unparalleled arpeggiator options as well as excellent pianos, seems to offer the perfect complement to the CP1.

Reasoning for Option 2
The versatility of the Nord Stage 2 on top of the Kronos X seems to be a match made in heaven. The Nord offers instant knob tweak-ability that the other boards don’t offer, and it has killer organs and very good pianos. The synth stuff only seems average, but the versatility and goodness of sound outweigh the negatives. However, will these piano sound sets be inferior in comparison to the CP1?

Reasoning for Option 3
This combination covers every parameter that I mention on my both of my first and second criteria. However, it is three boards to pack to gigs instead of two boards, and this option is $3000 more expensive. And can the Kronos organs match-up to the Nord C2D?

PLEASE HELP, THIS IS A DIFFICULT AND EXPENSIVE DECISION, YOUR TIME AND EXPERTISE IN THIS MATTER IS VERY MUCH APPREICIATED, AND I WILL BUY THESE PRODUCTS FROM SWEETWATER.

Thank You
Glenn P.

[Johannes]

Hi Glenn, and welcome to the forums!

Seems like you really did your homework Seriously, very well and clear described wishlist.
The three options all sound like very nice setups. As for my 2 cents, two things come to my mind: #2 seems a bit odd since you have both 88 weighted keys boards. Why not take the smaller version of either of the two boards to have more adequate Organ/Synth Keys? MIDIes up you can anyhow play either sound from either board. Secondly, I think your basic question is the quest for the (subjectively, obviously) BEST Piano sound (And even though you don't mention it, probably also the action). IMHO, given that this is really subjective, after all it will depend on your personal preferences. The Kronos, NS2, and the CP-1 all have very good piano sounds but are also rather different, including the action. But given you buy anyhow two boards just need to eliminate one. Given you need a very versatile Synth on top, The NS2 and CP1 would rival for the Piano parts only. I would defintiively spend some time to play both in a store to get your PERSONAL favorite. Finally, as you also look for Organ, question si whether you need two manuals and/or drawbars. The NS2 (different from the CP) would at least give you an additional decent clonewheel sound plus drawbuttons.
Anyhow, I personally would probably go for #1 or #2 (with Kronos 73), depending on what my preferences in terms of Piano Sound and Action are (in fact, I would take a NP2-88 as weighted board since its my preferred Piano Action/Sound Combo, but thats another story).

Cheers, Johannes

[frantzkb]

Hi Glenn,

I would start by buying a NS2-76 , use it for a few months, and see what happens with only that board first.

[bdodds]

Hello,

If I only had two keys to choose, it will be on top the Nord Stage 2 73 or the Nord C2 and at the bottom the Korg Kronos X 88.

I played in two band. I use my NS2 88 with my Motif ES 6 in the first band and the other band I use my Nord C2 and Yamaha S90ES.

Best Regards,

[NordFan]

Wow! What great setups you have in mind! A perfect choice of brands to be honest......

Just before I go into it. Why didn't you consider a bottom keyboard (NS2 88 preferrably) and as top keyboard a midi keyboard with a Macbook Pro attached to it? The Macbook provides you with far more flexibility, control and quality to your sounds. The Korg would have been my priority too but it can't compete to the wide range of superb plugins that are available for Mac/Win. And the Korg sounds get out of date while the plugins can be renewed/updated (at relatively low costs).

Another convenient aspect is the weight. The NS2 88 is not so heavy comparing to Kronos X88 and Yamaha CP1. Combine that with a midi keyboard (Novation SL MKII for example) on top and your back will be thankfull .

I would definitely go for an NS2 88. Ofcourse, it will always be a matter of taste and there are lots off topics on this forum regarding the piano sounds, but the Nord piano is my favourite of all. I absolutely love Yamaha but the natural sound of the Nord makes my heart melt every time haha!
And when you use the NS2 88 as your main keyboard you always have the best piano, EP and organ sounds with you. And it's synth is ok just for small gigs or rehearsals (although there are some pretty cool sounds in it which are really good for a "stage piano").

One more thing, I wouldn't go for option #3 unless you have a personal roadie. I know, it looks great, it sounds great, it impresses everybody but it is just too much to carry with you haha! I'm playing in bands for almost 14 years now (I'm 29) and throughout the years I'm beginning to hate all the carrying of the heavy gear. So, make your gear full scoped and at the highest quality but keep it as light as possible. That is my humble advice.

[Gustavo]

Hi,

I have tried all of those keyboards and in my personal opinion the CP-1 is not worth the hassle. It is just so heavy and does not sound that better. But the Kawai MP-10, that one totally blew me away!! Plus I felt that the keybed is more like a real piano (I actually got a Kawai grand recently). I mention it because it seems to be the same concept as the CP-1, which is awesome Pianos with a real piano action, which might interest you.

Still since you do not have roadies, I would go solely for a Nord Stage 2 88. Sure the Kronos will delivery extra sounds, but from what you mention, I do not think that it is worth spending so much on the Kronos (that much also includes all the time spent setting it up, carrying an extra keyboard, etc.). I believe you could get all the sounds you want from the Nord Stage 2. Also, personally I think the keybed on the NS2 88 is better for pianos, which provides a better experience in those cases, but it is still good enough to play organs. I think that on EPs, both are probably tied, but I find the Nord Stage 2 to have a more intuitive interface which is more tweakable. But in exchange for that you do not get a lot of bread and butter sounds, on the Kronos you could just dial in a patch that has a name similar to what you want and play. On the Nord Stage 2 you'll find yourself dialing in an EP and putting the effects as you feel sounds best. Two very different approaches.

So that may be a very rough way of putting things, but that is how I see them. If you are going to be playing jazz and do not need sequencing, drum tracks, complex orchestral samples or complex synth tones, then I'd go with a Nord Stage 2 88. THEN if I am not satisfied in one regard I'd get something to expand. If you need better synth sounds, I'd get a Tetra instead (true analog and much cheaper/compact/light).

Also, if you are going for NS2+Kronos from the start, I would get the 88 NS2 and a 61 Kronos, just to keep things simpler.

[bdodds]

I can't really add much except to thank the folks who have already commented for their insight, and having primarily gigged for the past ten years my focus is entirely on weight, accessibility and believability. I'm not playing a real piano, or a real organ, so with that constraint, is the sound good enough for 99.9% of my audience? I have to haul this out and back in upwards of every week, and sometimes more than once in a weekend (which is a lot for an amateur like me), and my back for some reason is not getting better at handling the weight, so is it the lightest I can make it? I play a lot of improv and when a clav with wah is the perfect thing for what we've stumbled into, can I get to it with just a few quick button pushes? The room is eating up my tone, can I tweak the EQ on the fly to carry further? A gentle phase would sound good to animate this Rhodes patch, can I get it applied within a second? The Nord, for me, answers all of these questions with a resounding yes. Some bands I play with I need the same tweakability and depth in a synth, and I bring out my Moog for that, but otherwise the Stage 2 does everything I could hope for. I add stompboxes here and there to add flexibility to certain effects, but I'd apply those to any keyboard I'd own, so I don't count that as a hit against the Nord. It's my 95% solution, and I add a few things to get it to 99% (100% would be a real Hammond and Rhodes and Clav, which ain't happening ever).

But my opinion is not as valuable as the rest in here because I would never consider a Kronos just because it's waaaaaaaaaaay too much board for my needs. Hope you get the answers you need! Sweetwater should do well for you - don't they offer some sort of satisfaction guarantee? So it's possible to send something back if it really doesn't work for you.

[Johannes]

All good points mentioned! In particular I would seriously take the effort to get acquainted to your sales guy. Putting down this amount of cash they should be kind enough to answer your questions plus offer you some kind of tryout policy.

As a last point,

d) A wide variety of fat sounding synthesis including synth leads, pads, brass, and arpeggiator options.

This in my opinion could lead to think a KRONOS or Jupiter 80 might fit your bill, in particular if you need USER created ARP patterns!

[DanielD71]

I've been reading a lot about Kronos during my vacation... My wife did not like it
I read a lot on the net, youtube and korg forum, then somebody wrote about the ssd "hard drive" and the difference of temperature when moving from one location to another. I went to korg web site and found this :
Handling of the internal disk drive
• When this device is moved to a location where the
temperature is radically different, water droplets may
condense on the internal disk drive. If the device is used in
this condition, it may malfunction, so please allow several
hours to pass before operating the device.

I live in Quebec, Canada and we have cold winter. We play a lot during the holidays and we use a truck and a rental car to move our gig (trip can be from an hour to 4-5 depending of the location). Usually, we arrive at the location, set up our rig to the stage and prepare for a sound check within the hour, hour and half...So I won't be able to have a kronos cause I won't be able to power it up...
I'm sad about that cause the kronos is a very good workstation.

Regards,

[anotherscott]

I've been reading a lot about Kronos during my vacation... My wife did not like it
I read a lot on the net, youtube and korg forum, then somebody wrote about the ssd "hard drive" and the difference of temperature when moving from one location to another. I went to korg web site and found this :
Handling of the internal disk drive
• When this device is moved to a location where the
temperature is radically different, water droplets may
condense on the internal disk drive. If the device is used in
this condition, it may malfunction, so please allow several
hours to pass before operating the device.

That warning sound like it applies to systems with hard drives. The Kronos does not have a hard drive, it has an SSD drive. It serves the same kind of function, but the technology of the mechanism is entirely different (essentially a kind of flash memory). I suspect that warning was written for the OASYS (the Kronos' predecessor, which had a hard drive), and when most of the OASYS manual was adapted to the Kronos, that warning came along unnecessarily. One of the advantages of SSD drives over hard drives is that they don't have the kinds of temperature issues that hard drives do. If this is your only issue with the Kronos, you might want to double-check this with Korg tech support and/or inquire at korgforums.com.