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Improving precision against the beat

Postby Lophophora » 29 Nov 2016, 05:00

Hi,

I am seeking to improve my precision against the beat. I have noticed that I am always slightly ahead of the beat, although consistent. I have measured this on my DAW to be approx. 0,05 sec on average. I usually get a near-perfect result by shifting the audio a few milliseconds, but this phenomenon concerns me.

When I play something basic, say a 2-octave scale with my left hand on a 120 bpm tempo while focusing specifically on matching the beat, I get closer to it, but I am less consistent! This is beyond me. Is it something usual or is it just me? And is there something I can do to improve on this?
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Improving precision against the beat


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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby GeeDeWee » 30 Nov 2016, 14:57

I believe playing 'perfect' on the beat should not be your goal.
A better goal is to deliberately be 'early' or 'late' in your timing to get the right feel for the song you play.

The listener does not measure your timing, he or she only experiences it.
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby analogika » 30 Nov 2016, 16:16

Also note that most DAWs have some recording offset, so unless you're recording your metronome and the playing simultaneously, you can't gauge precision against the internal clock of the DAW.
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby Lophophora » 23 Dec 2016, 19:10

Thanks for your feedback. After investigating it turns out my DAW wasn't properly set up. The automatic latency compensation wasn't working like it should. Now everything's fine!
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby analogika » 09 Apr 2018, 20:50

sweelinck wrote:
Lophophora wrote:Hi,

I am seeking to improve my precision against the beat. I have noticed that I am always slightly ahead of the beat, although consistent. I have measured this on my DAW to be approx. 0,05 sec on average. I usually get a near-perfect result by shifting the audio a few milliseconds, but this phenomenon concerns me.

When I play something basic, say a 2-octave scale with my left hand on a 120 bpm tempo while focusing specifically on matching the beat, I get closer to it, but I am less consistent! This is beyond me. Is it something usual or is it just me? And is there something I can do to improve on this?

Why is that your goal?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato


Brilliant when you're playing alone.

Useless whenever you're not.
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby Quai34 » 09 Apr 2018, 22:07

IN jazz or blues, you could have the bass a bit ahead to "pull" the song on a fast tempo while the guitar or keys could "in the beat, deep into it", meaning really almost after the beat on a slow tempo....Well it's an examp,e but Eroll Garner is very famous for using some ahead tempo to keep pulling/pushing the song...Or Miles Davis, sometime you even feel head lost the notes, he forgot to play it but no, finally you heard it and it's still on the beat kind of, can't moared to the other instruments...
For me if you "feel" it right, go for it, leave it the way you registered, so, it will sound more natural, with no quantization....
Sorry if the "push/pull" thing isn't the right translation in English though...
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby Mr_-G- » 10 Apr 2018, 00:17

Did you check for a latency setting in your DAW? Maybe you have an incorrect value and you are playing on time, but the track is repositioned after the recording is stopped.
I was looking just today how to adjust this in Audacity, I suppose that the principle is similar in whatever DAW you use (you generate a click track, then record the output back into another track and measure the distance between clicks).
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby analogika » 10 Apr 2018, 12:54

sweelinck wrote:
analogika wrote:
sweelinck wrote:Why is that your goal?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_rubato


Brilliant when you're playing alone.

Useless whenever you're not.


Ensembles learn how to work together to play expressively. In a rock band, the drummer or rhythm player can act as conductor to lead the ritards at the end of a section or song. Musicians who play together regularly can learn to communicate expressivity. It can be hard to achieve if too many independent tracks are recorded and mixed, and certainly metronomes and drum machines defeat expressive playing.

You're still gonna have to be able to play in time.

(What’s with the huge writing?)
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby analogika » 10 Apr 2018, 21:01

sweelinck wrote:Sorry about the larger font— when I include quoted text, it renders the same size as the fonts in quoted text on my phone so I was actually trying to balance the size, not make it larger.

Playing expressively is consistent with playing in time. It isn’t a style that breaks the rhythm. The most basic device is a ritardando or ritard (slight slowing down) at the end of a song to provide a visceral/emotional cue to the listener that it is the end of the song instead of having the music just fall off a cliff at the end. A more subtle ritard may be used at the end of a section, verse, or chorus. Some bands record with abrupt endings and leave it to the mastering engineer to add a fade out at the end to convey the ending. This is like a painter providing a gallery an unfinished painting and letting them finish it.

When playing in a group, these nuances must be worked out in group rehearsals. It is still playing in time. But my original point was that trying to match a metronome at a level of precision measured by a computer is counterproductive. The rhythm must come from the gut, not the machine.

Thank you for clarifying!

IMO, playing in time is not just "rhythm", but also a feel for the tempo. Gut feel over click, I do agree with. But even so, training is necessary to get a good feel for tempos, since tempo can be absolutely essential for the feel of a groove.

How do you train your gut to have a good feel for tempo but by playing to a metronome/click?

Also, gut-feel groove is all wonderful, but the basic reality of much of a musician's work is working with a click. And even when it's not to a click, chances are, you're overdubbing to tracks from a drummer who isn't reacting to you. You need to be able to follow that. And train for it.
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Re: Improving precision against the beat

Postby Quai34 » 14 Apr 2018, 06:12

Okay, I understand now, that's why guitarist are never on time....It's not them, just the instrument they use!!! :facepalm:
I should post that on "guitar magazine forum" to see their reaction...
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