Discuss other brands keyboards, synthesizers, modules, software, controllers including how they compare or work with the Nords.

A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby veggie_delight » 03 Oct 2014, 20:03

Hello Nordists,

I'm fairly new to synths (currently about halfway through this excellent tutorial), but I frequently need to recreate keyboard sounds in pop songs. Looking around for advice and assistance, the Nord user forums have been tremendously helpful, and I've quickly and shamelessly pillaged the Programs forums for all of my favorite user-submitted programs. I'm anxiously awaiting the time that my synth skills allow me to start giving back and making my own contributions to this incredible resource.

What I'm finding, however, is that when keyboardists post their sounds, they are not keyboard/synth agnostic. In the Nord forums, fully constructed programs will be posted, but what good is that to a Korgist? As far as I know, the only way to expose the programming of that sound is to load it into a Nord.

So here's the dream. I'd love to see a forum in which users post details of the programming they used to build those sounds. For example:

Katy Perry - California Gurls
Saw wave
cutoff: 262 Hz
Low pass filter (24 dB)
etc etc etc...

A model like this would allow the entire synth community to contribute and collaborate, effectively crowd-sourcing the reproduction of the synth sounds in the songs we want to play. This could be an incredible resource. In fact, it's such an obvious idea that I figure one of the following must be true:

  1. This resource already exists, and my Google skills aren't good enough to find it.
  2. There's some fundamental issue with the idea that I don't understand because I'm still a synth newbie.
But if neither of those are the case, then I am pretty dead set on putting that computer science degree to use and building a proper home for agnostic synth collaboration somewhere on the interwebs.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Agreements? Does this already exist? Am I fool for thinking it should?

Looking forward to hearing what everyone thinks!

:thanks:
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A forum for agnostic synth descriptions


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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby elektromin » 04 Oct 2014, 00:17

I've been reading this book (http://www.amazon.com/Keyboard-Presents ... 1423492811) that actually does exactly what you propose. I think it's a great method because it actually helps you to learn how to do it yourself! So, I just did this in another thread (nord-stage-2-programs-ns2p-ns2pb-files-f15/moog-sound-snarky-puppy-thing-of-gold-t7577.html#p48222) as an attempt to learn another guy how to do the sound himself.

I guess one reason we don't see much of this is that people are lazy and want things served completely done... Too bad. Another reason would be that you will never get exactly the right sound, since the synth models vary in features, and also it's hard to give instructions that are precise enough.
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby veggie_delight » 04 Oct 2014, 01:20

Excellent, @elektromin, so on top of the inherent value of agnosticism, this method also has educational merit! Thanks so much for the advice.

So you mentioned two downfalls, and we can ignore the first, because there's nothing we can do about laziness. But I'm glad you pointed out the second problem, because this seems like a great community of knowledgable dudes and gals that can try to work out solutions together.

So how can we deal with the problem that it's hard to give precise enough programming instructions on account of the variety in each synth? Is it ok to accept that instructions like the ones in my original post will get you in the ballpark, but not necessarily all the way there? I think it is. The lack of precision doesn't outweigh the benefits of creating a community that's open to all keyboardists. It also doesn't outweigh the educational value of the process of building the programs yourself. Furthermore, because you're building the program yourself, step by step, you've been hearing how the starting sound morphs as you use each control. I'd say having just heard that process will make it a lot easier for even a newbie to finish out the sound on his or her respective synth.

By the way, just read your description of how to build Cory Henry's Moog sound, and it was fantastic. Now just imagine a home base for all synth programmers to do the same... It's beautiful.

Any other comments? Does this already exist? Should it exist? Unless someone convinces me not to, I'm pretty sure I'm making a site and trying to goad this community into posting there to kickstart things...

:thanks: ← Love this.
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby Mr_-G- » 04 Oct 2014, 12:31

What you are asking is interesting, but I do not think it is particularly practical other than for learning about manipulating your synth.
Programmable synths, are indeed sound generating machines, and therefore potentially capable to generate a massive range of sounds, but let's not forget that they have their own "personalities" and expecting generic instructions to achieve a particular goal might be difficult or just not possible. With a typical analog type, think of the number of oscillators and waveforms, for example. Filters do not perform all the same, modulation levels and routings between the various modules are not the same either, some EGs are linear, some are logarithmic and so on. All those differences make it difficult to replicate a particular sound, let alone generate a language to describe a state that does not translate accurately.
Some synths are famous for a reason: they can do what others cannot, and samplers (the ultimate sound replication instrument) have become popular to overcome the difficulty of replicating sounds by synthesis alone.

You might find these articles interesting.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr99/a ... 20tips.htm
http://www.synthmania.com/Famous%20Sounds.htm
http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/ ... als-224845
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby veggie_delight » 04 Oct 2014, 16:11

Thanks, Mr_-G-. That's exactly why I was asking here. I'm still so new to Synthland, and my only synth experience is with my Nord. I'm honestly surprised to hear that you don't think there's a way to evenly vaguely overcome those challenges, but my optimism probably speaks to my freshness. That said, if you or anyone else sees a why to make this more practical, please do let me know. It really bothers me that in the days of online collaboration, tabs and YouTube tutorials for every song ever, and open source software, we still don't have a reasonable way for synth programmers to share their work agnostically. I'd like to think that if the means to do this easily and practically were available, it would be a tremendous resource to the entire synth community.

Thanks so much for taking the time to post those articles. At a quick skim, they look great. Looking forward to delving in!
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby Mr_-G- » 04 Oct 2014, 19:38

I think your safest bet, short of taking a course in music technology, is to learn by reading (a lot) and experimenting. Otherwise, you might get a idea how things work, but not understand exactly why.
There is an old book (4 booklets actually) by Roland called "The Synthesizer" that covers lots of ground in analog synthesis.
Also the SOS magazine collection of articles called "Synth Secrets" is worth reading.
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby veggie_delight » 05 Oct 2014, 04:00

Thanks for the tip, Mr_-G-, but this post isn't about learning synths. I'm working through a class on my own, I have a lot of opportunities to work with really great synth players, and I'm experimenting incessantly. I'm a weak synth programmer now, but I'll get there (thanks so much for your advice though, I really appreciate it!) This post is entirely about the fact that I find it a little distressing that the entire synth community is (somewhat arbitrarily) split into factions with no apparent way to bridge that divide. It seems a tremendous shame to me, because in just about every other facet of music, it's easy to share and explain your work with ANYONE that speaks the language. It might be simple sheet music, complicated theory, or something more cerebral, but there's always some way to communicate the processes and ideas behind your music. The fact that no such universal language exists for synths is frankly a little disheartening to me, but maybe it will bother me less once I've upped my synth game a bit. A language only matters if you know what to do with the information, after all...

Thanks so much for your help and advice!
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby Marlowes » 05 Oct 2014, 09:47

Hej all!

Yup - different synths are truly different beasts. Tried to adapt a favorite patch from my NL2X to my NLA1 and failed utterly! :sad:
And the red boxes are supposed to be sisters. And so different. (Just like my wife and her sisters.)
But I'm beginning to accept that and now I see new possibilities in that "limitation". :)

Brave New World, brave new soundscapes - here I come! 8-)

(Some kind of universal patch-bank for everyone would probably be a waste of energy, IMHO.)

/Amicalement
Michael in Scania
NE3HP, NP88, NS2, DPP1, NL2X, NL2X, NLA1, NL4, NE5D, NW2 (Collect Them All?), some classic Rolands, Arturias, a Waldorf, a Kurz, a WONOK3, a pile of guitars, a P-bass, loopers, amps and computers ...
I'm a gearslut! :oops:
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Re: A forum for agnostic synth descriptions

Postby Mr_-G- » 05 Oct 2014, 18:10

veggie_delight wrote:The fact that no such universal language exists for synths is frankly a little disheartening to me, but maybe it will bother me less once I've upped my synth game a bit. A language only matters if you know what to do with the information, after all...


Well, I do not find that odd, because I accept that not all synths speak strictly the same language. Their lexicon is not the same, because their alphabet is restricted to the implementation of their modules. This is more of a philosophical question. Now that you brought "universal languange" into this discussion, perhaps you would find interesting Umberto Eco's In search for the perfect language. A bit heavy going in parts, but an interesting read nevertheless.
As an example, if you want to make a typical analog synth to sound like a plucked string (i.e. K-S) algorithm, you would struggle big time in trying to explain the K-S algorithm to a Mini Moog owner because the Moog does not have a waveguide module implemented. Same with FM, and that is what gives different machines their personality. There is no simple translation from one 'model' of sound into the other unless the language allows you to describe the algorithm that goes with it. But even if you are able to do so, the receiving end does not have the ability to implement alternative algorithms.
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