Nord User Forum

[Jhbackingtracks]

This is a post I've been meaning to let some frustration out on for a while, and after tonights gig, the frustration has just built too much!...

Has anybody found anyway to be happy when playing at loud volumes, when in a band context, trying to compete with bloody guitars etc?! I'm coming away from gigs very unhappy with my setup/sound, which is very frustrating for saying how much I love the Nord Piano sounds when you can actually hear the detail. But it just seems as soon as you reach past the point of no return with having to compete in the band, all clarity and niceness of the sound is lost, and it just becomes pitched muddy noise, and no longer a nice authentic piano sound. EP's I can get away with a little more, but Pianos are just AWFUL when out of normal piano volume.

The problem is helped when I'm able to run in Stereo (with my two EV-ELX112p's) and allows the sound to breathe a bit more, and maybe gives me some more headroom, but again, after the 4th song in a party set when everyone is dancing and the groove needs to be lifted, the volume becomes too much, and I have to raise, and although I'm able to raise without clipping or distortion, the sound simply isn't NICE anymore. So it's better in stereo... but some gigs, there's not room for the stereo set up, or it seems too much hassle on just loud gigs where all clarity is lost, so I'll use one EV, and the mono version of this is SO much worse. It's just muddy and bad quality. But I don't think the Nord Pianos sound good in mono at any level, never mind loud! Has anyone ever found good mono results? I've tried the in built mono summing, using only left and right etc.

I've also tried this Space Station V3 you hear a lot about, and I knew instantly within 10 minutes of playing with it, that it's no good for me. I had high hopes, having read some amazing reviews... but it just didn't cut it. No where near enough volume compared to an EV ELX, and it would clip/distort at general band level... and as for the stereo effect, I just felt it didn't work at all. Nothing like having stereo EV's. Plus the 'width' added lots of colour to the sound. Such a shame, as I hoped this could be the answer in an all in one unit, just turning up with one amp like a guitarist! And not having to deal with my own PA system basically. But of course this still wouldn't solve the loudness issue... but I did hope it would solve the horrible mono packed in a box, not realistic piano sounding problem when only being able to use one speaker. Other than the Motion Sound, I've not seen anything else that might be a contender?

So the basic question. HOW can we sound good and like our instruments should sound, when being forced to be at loud volumes in gig situations? ... I guess in ears could solve a lot, but In ears are no good for casual gigs where you're in charge of your own sound, and need to hear where you are in relation to everything, and what the audiences are hearing. I don't want to be doing jazz club intimate gigs with ambient microphones placed around for in ears, ha! .... I've often wondered, on massive gigs, HOW do you ever play a gentle jazz ballad at the level a piano would be at when playing a real one, but have the volume translated loud enough to reach everyone in the room/stadium, and the dynamic be right?? ... Is it because a bigger atmosphere with a massive system, has more headroom and translates better, because you're not trying to push everything to compete in a medium sized room?

Very interesting. But there MUST be a way, to achieve decent piano sounds at loud volumes, in mono and stereo. I'm determined to find it, as I'm simply not happy playing on gigs at the moment!

[damasp]

Running mono never sounds good. The Black Upright is better than most patches for mono. I really like my EV ELX112P s. They can be a bit bassy. They sound more detailed when using a descent mixer and also using short speaker stands to raise them up. There are some really expensive speakers out there that will probably give you better quality of sound.

I recently bought a pair of Alto TS210. They sound descent and I bought them for their size and weight. I'd rather not carry around Ev if I don't need to. However I notice the difference in sound. The Evs are warm and richer sounding. The Altos were a good buy for my current budget. They are just for stage monitoring. I can bring both and play in stereo.

Sometimes when a band just plays so loud, it can all just sound like noice, with no respect for space. Egos run wild.

[daniel70]

In my opinion this problem generally exists with any digital generated sound. If i play for example my real Rhodes on stage or in a rehearsal it's just not necessary to put the gain lower or louder every minute. It's a natural sound that just sits in the mix. But if i play a Rhodes sample on my Nord, which sounds real well, i always think i must turn louder or lower and it seems never to be perfect and if its getting to loud, it sounds very unnatural and unpleasing.

[missoundscape]

I've had about the same frustration. I also tried the Spacestation, with the same results.
There are three things (in my opinion and my experience):
1. If you are in a full band, everything changes. The sound you play at home, which sounds beautiful, won't cut through. If I use piano in a band, I have to EQ the piano (use the EQ on the Nord). More tremble, more mids. That way I can cut through better, instead of just playing louder. During rehearsals is the moment to tweak the sound to your liking, and the bands liking.
2. If the others are just too loud, you all need to cut the volumes. It's important you all get a balanced sound when playing together. That's something that won't happen by accident. You need to listen to each other.
3. Good monitoring is important when on stage. Get a good monitoring sound from the sound guy. Tell him/her what you want to hear. I always ask for guitar/vocals/keys, and want everything as it goes to the audience. In that way I can hear if I'm too loud or soft in relation to the guitar. This way I'm much more in control. I use one DXR10 as monitoring. I want to have nice sound on stage, but that's often difficult to get. It's more important that you can hear yourself, and others, than have a nice sound on stage.

[analogika]

These are gigs where you have no sound technician?

Generally, making my kit sound good out front to the audience is not my problem. I just need to make sure I'm giving out a good signal.

Most gigs, I use in-ear monitoring, so everything sounds wonderful, clear, and direct, and on other gigs, where there are monitor speakers on stage, I'll try to get a useful sound - it needs to be good enough that i can do my job well, is all I ask.
I keep a ZT acoustic lunchbox in the car for those small gigs where there's no useful monitoring. It will distort quickly, but I rather like the way it sounds then, and it's tiny enough to always have along, so I'm not complaining.

[hijlko]

From your posting I guess you are playing in a non-PA setting and your EV's need to produce the sound for the audience (my answers are based on this assumption).

1) your EQ settings at home will not persé be the most ideal for a gig
2) your EV's when getting louder will not have any headroom left and start to sound unpleasant. You need a lot of full range power to compete with tube amps. Cut some bass from the EQ, it will increase the headroom and leaves some room for the bassplayer anyway. I use Line 6 L2T's and have no problem cutting through the mix and get a better live sound when giving a little bit less mids and bass and a little bit more high.
3) the sound at your location is not the sound the audience will hear, probably it sounds better further away from the speakers.
4) lift your speakers from the ground (if this it not the already the case). Experiment with the best height.
5) no room for a stereo setup is nonsense, tell your guitarplayer to leave home half of his gear or your drummer to leave out his floor toms. It's not gonna happen so why should you have to leave one of your most important items home.
6) tell your guitarists to check their volume with their ears in front of their amp. Generally they have the amp on the ground while having their ears 1,5m above the amp and have no idea about the real volume.
6) glue the volume knobs of the guitaramps after the first number when all sounds right. Unless your drummer starts to play louder it does not make sense to turn up the volume anyway. It is a well known fact that - besides the lead vocalist- guitarplayers have the biggest ego. Tell them they are in a band and not in a one man show...

[damasp]

Great advice hijiko. Guitar players don't get it (stereo equ. Issue). If they were missing half the tone on their guitar they might comprehend.

[cphollis]

Yeah, well, when I have to compete with a loud guitarist, the only thing that works is bringing more game.

I have a pair of Fulcrum Acoustic 12acs (2000 watts each) that I use for this purpose. I can rock my Nords at ear-splitting volume -- and they sound awesome -- but I'm not proud about it. I can completely drown out any other instrument if I choose to. Not my preference,

Guitar dude gets the message after a few gigs. You want to do loud? OK, here's freakin' loud.

But seriously, if guitar dude doesn't want to dial it down, you're in the wrong band.

[danrv]

I understand Jhbackingtracks' frustration. I've never had problems with piano sounds live until I bought my Stage 2 a couple of years back.
It's taken me a year of trying mono/stereo', Ch1/Ch2 out, different samples, EQ. First thing I learnt was that my Roland KC350 wasn't great with the Nord piano samples although absolutely fine with pianos sounds from Japanese brands.
It was a handy 'one box' solution with onboard stereo mixing which is ideally what I want but it was a bit heavy.

Does the band have a PA?
If you can route the Nord to the FOH if there is one and use your EV's for your own monitoring, I'm sure things would improve.
When space allows and I can use both my Yamaha DXR10's for monitoring, the piano sounds are much better as they're in stereo and they don't need to be very loud.
Often though, it's easier to just use one to due to lack of stage space. I also have to rig up the PA and lights so although it does affect my piano sounds being in mono, the rest of the gear takes priority.

The piano sounds aren't very clear in a lively band setting through one DXR. For solo, Jazz group playing with less on stage volume, I quite like the piano sounds in mono, especially the uprights.
Also different room acoustics can effect how the piano sounds.
I have a 'last resort' Roland piano sample loaded into my Stage 2 for when the Nord piano sound isn't cutting it. It's from my old XP80 and it sounds clear anywhere, through anything.
Lacking the velocity layers but it doesn't matter when you just need to hear a solo over the band.
For crystal clear piano every time, the best solution is in ear monitors with a stereo mix. I'm in two minds about that, plus I've bought the Yamahas now.

I've had some success with the onboard EQ on the Nord. I loaded in the 'Silver Grand'',setup my 2 RCF HD12 PA speakers and added bass and cut the mids.
Nord piano sounds are very natural sounding and not really optimised for live playing and the EQ can help here.

[Adams]

Arrangements and timbres are king. If you're all playing in the same range or even same notes... something will cancel out so the volume war will start; and it's a pointless thing. Play parts that are out of the 'gtr' range or the 'tom' range. You may need to EQ sounds that make them 'look' stupid, but they'll work.

You can't win by volume. I learned that 20 years ago. I've played thru great rigs, no rigs, world class rigs. Volume doesn't help!

Regarding the Nord's great piano natural piano sounds... I find them lovely so should my guitarist. Get him to leave some room if it's an important part. If you're comping - don't worry about cutting thru. I play very percussively in those situations.Back him up also. Means he won't need to kill it if you're supporting him. Snare drums and cymbals - well they are what they are!

As usual - it depends!