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Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby Patschi » 10 Dec 2011, 20:48

Hi folks!
To me it’s a pity that it’s only the sustain pedal that can be configured as a rotary speed switch.
I’d prefer the left pedal for that purpose.

When I installed the enclosed anti-slip rubber I had to remove screws from the bottom of the Triple Pedal which made me curious how the whole thing might work.
So I removed the bottom cover and detached the encasement.
The attached images no. 01 to 05 show how it looks like.

The Triple Pedal doesn’t use simple normally-open-switches for its functions.
It’s got 4 resistors that control the half pedal functionality of the sustain pedal using the tip –> shield part of the TRS-jack and respectively one resistor for each of the other two pedals both using the ring –> shield part of the jack.

The related switches are rubber-mounted graphite stampers that simply connect two conducting tracks on the printed circuit board.
Each switch consists of two stampers that are attached at slightly different levels so that they don’t connect simultaneously.

The sustain pedal has got two of these double switches so that there are 5 operating conditions:
all open to all closed. That means that there are 3 possible half pedal states.
The electrical resistance between the tip and shield connectors goes from infinite (fully open) to something like 10kΩ to 3,2kΩ to 1,3kΩ to 0,5kΩ (which is recognized as no resistance) as you press the sustain pedal down slowly .
The related resistors R1 to R4 can be seen on the images no. 07, 08 and 10.

The middle pedal is wired up to the ring connector via a 10kΩ-resistor (R5).
The left pedal goes also to the ring connector but by a 5 kΩ-resistor (R6).
That’s why a simple open – closed foot switch is not suitable for controlling the Sostenuto and Soft Pedal functionality.
And that’s also the reason why the left pedal can’t control the rotary speed (unless an OS update might implement this) even if you connected the ring connector to the tip of an adapter cable and plugged it into the latch/rotor pedal input.

BUT:
If you bypassed R6 the left pedal could do what I would like it to do.
And that’s exactly what I did:
I soldered a wire onto each side of resistor R6 ( see the red arrows in picture no. 10) that I connected via a flip switch so that I can switch the bypass on and off.
Off means the Triple Pedal works as before, on means the left pedal can switch the rotary speed if connected to the rotor input.

I integrated the flip switch into the top of the Triple Pedal which actually looks as if it was meant to be like this (see pictures 11 to 14).

What you need additionally is a Y-adapter cable that splits the TRS jack into two TS jacks (stereo female to 2x male, e.g. http://www.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_tpy_2003_bpp.htm ).
The tip-part needs to go to the sustain pedal input, the ring part to the latch/rotor pedal input.
The middle pedal is not in use in that mode.

At the moment I have to change plugs if I want to use the Sostenuto and Soft Pedal again.
So I think I might build a switch box that does that by another flip switch.

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Last edited by Patschi on 31 Jul 2012, 12:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Inside Triple Pedal, modification


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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby Bernard » 11 Dec 2011, 10:31

hey patschi,

thanks for sharing this information and the great images. This is very interesting. So the Sustain Pedal isn't really continuous. Maybe it's possible to modify an existing pedal if Clavia does not release a single pedal with this functionality.

Bernard
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby mon8169 » 11 Dec 2011, 11:02

So the pedal is discrete. But, what does the plastic sawtooth in the outer pedals activate? I cannot see it in the pics.

Ramon
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby maxpiano » 11 Dec 2011, 11:02

Thanks Patschi!
I am about to buy an NS2 and was thinking of making some experiments and measurements to find alternatives to the Triple Pedal and/or adapt an existing continuous pedal to the NS2, but you definitely eased my life! ;-)
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby Patschi » 11 Dec 2011, 11:17

mon8169 wrote:what does the plastic sawtooth in the outer pedals activate? I cannot see it in the pics.


The sawtooth is not in use in the Triple Pedal.
In other versions that are not designed for Clavia it might drive a potentiometer that can be mounted on prepared pivots.
I would guess it's made by Fatar. The pictures on the Fatar website look just like the guts of my Triple Pedal:
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/Console%20Dy ... Pedals.htm
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/VFP3.htm

And also the enclose sustain pedal that comes with the NS is obviously a Nord version of Fatar's VFP-1:
http://www.fatar.com/Pages/VFP1.htm
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby Patschi » 11 Dec 2011, 11:28

BTW:
Have I mentioned that you supposedly loose your warranty claim if you treat your Triple Pedal like this ?! :shock:
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby maxpiano » 11 Dec 2011, 11:57

Added info: I tested the Roland DP-8 pedal I have on my FP7 and it uses a 10K potentiometer, connected to a TRS jack and working as follows:

TIP-SLEEVE= 0Ω (open) to 10kΩ (closed)
RING-SLEEVE= 10kΩ (open) to 0Ω (closed)

So unwiring (desolder in the pedal) the RING contact (to avoid it being interpreted also as a Soft/Sostenuto) should make it work on NS2 ... :roll:
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby Patschi » 11 Dec 2011, 14:25

maxmariano wrote:So unwiring (desolder in the pedal) the RING contact (to avoid it being interpreted also as a Soft/Sostenuto) should make it work on NS2 ... :roll:


I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

Roland's half pedal functionality is - as far as I know - controlled by the resistance between tip and ring.
It certainly works as an ordinary sustain pedal once you've set the sustain pedal type in the system menue to "closed".

The Triple Pedal is an "open"-type.
So if you have 0Ω in the open state the sound will sustain and will stop as you depress the Roland pedal.
That's why you won't be able to use the half pedal function with others than pedal types that work just the way the Triple Pedal does.
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby maxpiano » 11 Dec 2011, 14:45

Patschi wrote:
maxmariano wrote:So unwiring (desolder in the pedal) the RING contact (to avoid it being interpreted also as a Soft/Sostenuto) should make it work on NS2 ... :roll:


I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

Roland's half pedal functionality is - as far as I know - controlled by the resistance between tip and ring.
It certainly works as an ordinary sustain pedal once you've set the sustain pedal type in the system menue to "closed".

The Triple Pedal is an "open"-type.
So if you have 0Ω in the open state the sound will sustain and will stop as you depress the Roland pedal.
That's why you won't be able to use the half pedal function with others than pedal types that work just the way the Triple Pedal does.


OK you are right, I overlooked that the values of Triple pedal "states" you listed include an open= infinite resistance, state.. :cry:

Uhm, so need to think if it is possible to design a (passive) circuit that can achieve the same or... buy the Triple Pedal and be effortlessly happy :D
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Re: Inside Triple Pedal, modification

Postby DrNeurus » 11 Dec 2011, 18:40

Patschi wrote:The electrical resistance between the tip and shield connectors goes from infinite (fully open) to something like 10kΩ to 3,2kΩ to 1,3kΩ to 0,5kΩ (which is recognized as no resistance) as you press the sustain pedal down slowly .
The related resistors R1 to R4 can be seen on the images no. 07, 08 and 10.


Looks like the resistors values are:
R1=10K
R2=4.7K
R3=2.2K
R4=820ohm

The rubber connectors put the resistors sequentially in parallel:
step 1=open circuit
step 2=R1 = 10K
step 3= R1 // R2 = 3.2K
step 4= R1 // R2 // R3 = 1.3K
step 5= R1 // R2 // R3 // R4 = 0.5K

At least this matches Patschi's measurements.
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