Nord User Forum

[RedLeo]

Just thought I'd pass this on. A friend lent me his last week and I used it on a little jazz/standardy restaurant gig with acoustic bass and female vocalist. We ran the NP stereo into 2 channels panned hard R/L, the vocal into the third channel and out of the API into my RCF TT08A speakers which were on speaker poles on both sides of us.

I've often complained about the *digitalitess* of the Nord Pianos sound live. I will say the API was HUGE in removing the *digital* from "digital piano". The 3124 added an openness, sweeter top end, thicker bass and middle and just an overall smoother, more detailed euphonic sound-both in the XL Bosie & Br. Grand sample and the reverb. It was night and day comparing to my $300 Allen & Heath ZED10 mixer, there really was NO comparison.. I guess at 10X the price the sound would be greatly improved.

The vocal was very clear and rich sounding too using only a simple Shure 58. Our little trio is usually relegated to more background/ambient type vibe in this place. I noticed people listening more and responding too. A drummer friend of mine was in the audience having dinner with his wife and said to me on the break-wow the sound is incredible on your piano ! It sounded so realistic sitting out there.

I've heard more then one person voice skepticism that a high quality studio mic preamp will add little noticeable difference on a line source outside the studio. I highly disagree, the proof was in the hearing. Perhaps these listeners are used to hearing keyboards through GC type musical instrument speakers.

The API is one rack space, has the four inputs, 4 pres each with individual XLR outs in addition to 2 1/4" main outs, FX s/r, stereo pan. The build quality is very robust too. Since it's solid state and no tubes, no space is needed for ventilation.
I spoke with someone at API and he said 3124s are frequently found in racks of touring pros--from enhancing drums to keyboards to vocals. So basically no worries about putting this piece in a shallow 2 space fx type soft bag/rack.

The 3124 obviously is not an inexpensive piece and will be out of reach for most-including me. I'm waiting for my friend to sell me his at a greatly discounted price from a new one...

added thought-I also tested my CP5 with the API in my studio the afternoon before the gig. I ran out of the balanced XLR outs on the Yamaha, which is a nice feature I wish the Nords had. Ditto the above posted on the sonic improvement of the CP5. The CP5 EPs can sound a little soft and just generally kinda wimpy but the API definitely improved things all around.

[jazzonebyone]

I'm still thinking about this. An ideal preamp should not change the sound at all, so apparently the API adds some coloration that makes the NP sound better. I've read that the API uses an output transformer, which generally does affect the sound quality. It also uses input transformers for the mic, but not the line, inputs.
Were you using the line inputs or the mic inputs (with the Nord volume lower) ?
The search for the best red piano sound continues .......

[RedLeo]

I must admit I'm intrigued by this report as well. It's easy to understand the API outperforming an Allen and Heath or similar product, but it would have been interesting to know whether the "sound" of the API was different or better that just a straight cable into the PA speakers, on either line or mic inputs. I suspect that jazzonebyone's idea is right, that the input (or output) transformers, and maybe other circuitry, are not neutral, but are coloring the sound in much the same way that tubes, analog tape and vinyl records are reputed to color sound in a way that many people hear as an improvement over the "technically correct" flat sound. But the thought of spending more money on preamps than on keyboards just makes my eyes cross...does it ever end?

BTW I have also heard similar reports about Radial DI boxes, though I've never used one myself. Perhaps a cheaper option to improving overall sound quality?

[Dave Ferris]

I'm still thinking about this. An ideal preamp should not change the sound at all, so apparently the API adds some coloration that makes the NP sound better. I've read that the API uses an output transformer, which generally does affect the sound quality. It also uses input transformers for the mic, but not the line, inputs.
Were you using the line inputs or the mic inputs (with the Nord volume lower) ?
The search for the best red piano sound continues .......

There are generally two types of mic pres-ones that slightly color, or give a vibe or mojo to the sound like the Neve, API, Great River,Aurora, DW Fearn, A-Designs, etc. And pres that are more clean and transparent like Millennia, Grace, GML and to a lesser extent Hardy, Cranesong, Martech,Forssell, Gordon, Pendulum, etc.

I wouldn't say the API drastically altered the tone of the NP but it was without doubt enhanced greatly by adding a more "hi-fi" sound- that would be a good way to put it.

I went from the NP into the line inputs which do act as a DI. I don't know if the line inputs bypass the the transformers or not- that would be a question for the API guys I guess. I know on the A-Designs MP2A the DI goes straight to the the Jensen transformer. I'm thinking of borrowing the MP2A to demo.

I'm also supposed to pick up a pair of these to demo tomorrow and I'll write my thoughts about them too.
http://baeaudio.com/pages/products/inde ... &Itemid=29

But the thought of spending more money on preamps than on keyboards just makes my eyes cross...does it ever end?

Without a doubt. Where do you draw the line ? I have $2600 into my pair of RCF TT08A speakers and that was on an *open box special*. Otherwise you can see by looking them up on Google , a pair easily goes for 3K or more..
Is it worth it to invest all this dough into sound if you're relegated to background ambient *noise* in a bar or restaurant for a $100 a night ?! Doesn't really add up for sure..

I do do gigs that are higher profile where people actually come to see me or the singer or whoever is leading the group that night. In these cases, musically (still not always financially) it does seem more justified. The bottom line though, you are doing it for yourself, not anyone else.

BTW I have also heard similar reports about Radial DI boxes, though I've never used one myself. Perhaps a cheaper option to improving overall sound quality?

My same friend who lent me the 3124 also let me use his Radial Pro DI2 . This is the one WITHOUT the Jensen transformers. The JDI and JDI Duplex have the Jensens and are according to Radial a little smoother-although you gotta drag it out of them..

My Radial test consisted of my CP5 first going direct out of the balanced XLR outs straight to the XLR inputs on the TT08As. I then put the Pro DI2 in the chain and it did smooth things outs . Not as dramatically as the the APi but I'd say maybe a 20-25% noticeable difference. When I put the A&H mixer in the chain along WITH the Pro DI2, there was no discernible difference in the sound at all. I ran the same test with the Nord, except I ran out of the 1/4" outs and an XLR adaptor cord to feed the RCFs. In other words I've found the least abrasive sound putting a DI, and in a lesser case, the A&H mixer in front as opposed to going direct, even as good as my speakers are.

I would think with the Radial JDI with the Jensens would add another good 25% to that improvement factor..but just speculating of course. But yes at probably just over $300 street for the Duplex, that might be the most cost effective and quickest way of taking the *digital* out of the Nord Piano live.

Yet another option that I'm going to explore (I'm lucky to live in a city where all these guys are located) is this higher end DI from Martech.
http://www.martinsound.com/pd_m01so.htm

Again, I'm not sure the sonic quality of any preamp/di would be all that noticeable with the typical GC/SA QSC K10, EV ZXA1, or the comparable Mackie or JBL whatevers. Not to sound like a speaker snob, but the speakers are last in the line of the chain and perhaps still the most critical piece.

[RedLeo]

First, many thanks for all this useful information, there is no substitute for someone with first-hand experience of the gear in question.

Not to sound like a speaker snob, but the speakers are last in the line of the chain and perhaps still the most critical piece.

Yup, couldn't agree more. I recently went for an EV ZXA1, and although it works great on my Triton Extreme, I have been a little disappointed with its reproduction of the DP on my Stage - better than I was used to, but still a far cry from the very natural sound the Nord's capable of. (My home reference is using AKG K701 headphones, about as good as it gets without spending a ton more money). I've previously noted your liking of the RCF TTs, and you seem to be implying that they're a significant improvement over the EVs. I won't be springing for these (or anything like them) for a good while, but it's good to know anyway.

[Dave Ferris]

. I've previously noted your liking of the RCF TTs, and you seem to be implying that they're a significant improvement over the EVs. I won't be springing for these (or anything like them) for a good while, but it's good to know anyway.

Luckily I was in the position, after selling a Soundelux 49 studio mic, to be able to lay out the dough for the 08As. Otherwise I wouldn't have shelled out all that at once.

Having gone through about every typical amp and speaker configuration since 2000 and really never being very happy after a few months of use, I knew I had to jump up to the next level to get anything that would sound good. I've been buying speakers and amps for over 40 years and this is my first and hopefully last investment in a real "pro audio" speaker.

The TTs I think are the best copmromise and doable compared to L Acoustics 108P, Meyer UPJ-1P, the Turbosound 8" & 10 " boxes. You're up over 5K for any of those in a pair... So the RCFs for half the price and comparable sonic quality are the way to go imo. But yeah I definitely hear you -in this economy, with live gigs almost disappearing in some cases and pay being scaled back to LESS then what I was making in 1985-who can afford this and what's the point of spending it if you can ?

I guess the only analogy I can come up with is- the same reason I've sat in a room the last 33 years practicing the piano for thousands of hours. At some juncture you come to the realization of -what's the point ? Then you realize it's for you, your love , respect of the music and good sound.

ZXA1 is a good affordable, lightweight speaker. I preferred the sound of my older EV SXA 360s for piano but its apples & oranges comparing an 8" box to a 12".

[RedLeo]

But yeah I definitely hear you -in this economy, with live gigs almost disappearing in some cases and pay being scaled back to LESS then what I was making in 1985-who can afford this and what's the point of spending it if you can ?

Yes, reality has really kicked in. I do ok, but I've had to look hard at my working situations and make some tough decisions to make it all work.

I guess the only analogy I can come up with is- the same reason I've sat in a room the last 33 years practicing the piano for thousands of hours. At some juncture you come to the realization of -what's the point ? Then you realize it's for you, your love , respect of the music and good sound.

I've played through the SXA360s which is what convinced me to switch to EV. The rationale for the smaller speaker was that I play mostly larger venues - theatres and festivals, but still do most of my own schlepping. As I have the usual Mackie SRM450s for gigs that need louder monitoring, the ZXA1 is really a bit of self-indulgence for smaller gigs and rehearsals. I'm the only one who hears it usually - my monitors supplement the wedges I'm given, and give me some insurance that I'll hear myself regardless. Festival gigs are particularly chaotic and the keyboard player is usually at the end of the chain...

But your comments are exactly to the point. I decided to put my love for what I do first, and the improvement of the EV - for all my grumbling - has hugely enhanced my playing enjoyment for a fairly small outlay. I'm getting a real kick out of things again rather that standing there thinking - Oh well, I hope it sounds better than this out front.

So, all is good. And the EV's party trick of being able to fill a small rehearsal studio with a huge soundstage all by itself still kills me - my Triton sounds positively orchestral

[Dave Ferris]

I'm also supposed to pick up a pair of these to demo tomorrow and I'll write my thoughts about them too.
http://baeaudio.com/pages/products/inde ... &Itemid=29.

These BAE 1073s are very cool. Portable , lightweight. If you had case or bag made, carrying two to a gig would be very easy and little hassle hooking up to. They might be clearer then APi but I still prefer the 3124 for the Nord. I borrowed it again from my friend and I've been A/b ing the last two days. The 1073s don't soften those digital, harsh transients like the API does. The 1073, as I said, is a bit clearer, but it also just sounds kinda like a good typical Mackie or A&H board, nothing special like the APi. It's like the Nord and API are perfectly matched. Actually my CP5, running out of the balanced XLR outs, sounds a little more defined with the 1073 but not as *vibey* with the API.

edit-BIG difference on the cp5 between the balanced XLR outs and 1/4". The Yamaha sounds super punchy out of the xlrs, much more so then the 1/4 " outs. Changed my mind--CP5 sounds better out of the API overall as well. This thing is a MF ! I really don't wanna give it back...

I've never been able to sit in my studio and actually play the Nord Piano for more then 10 minutes for pure enjoyment sake without that digital harshness bugging me. With the 3124 it's a totally different sounding instrument-for the better..

For vocal, there's no comparison with my Nuemann KMS-105 mic-the 1073's are way nicer. The API is still very good, especially compared to my usual A&H mixer but not as sweet and super detailed. My friend who I'm borrowing the API from says his daughter's vocal sounds good with the 3124. He thinks female vocals work better then male on the API.

[RedLeo]

I've never been able to sit in my studio and actually play the Nord Piano for more then 10 minutes for pure enjoyment sake without that digital harshness bugging me.

do you use the RCFs at home for monitoring or something else?

[Dave Ferris]

Mainly gigging speakers but in my studio when I do play my keyboards, I use the TT08As.

Took back the BAE 1073s. Like I said they sounded just OK on the keyboards. However on my Steinway they were terrific !

So I'm demoing another BAE pre. Used it tonight on a gig and it sounded great on the NP. This is a pair of the 312 API in the 500 lunchbox series.
http://www.baeaudio.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=197

It had the same in your face, thick sound as the 3124 mb+ but none of the mixer capability, which I really did miss. Also there's something about the mb +'s DI that makes the transients a bit softer and more transparent. The mb + is more dough then then BAE DLB but I think I'll hold off till I can get what I want since I'll probably have it for many years to come.

In any case , using this stuff on the Nord or Yamaha live, totally opens your eyes or ears to the sonic capabilities of these keyboards..