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Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby ArthurS » 10 Nov 2014, 22:20

Hi there!

I recently bought the wonderful Nord Piano 2, and i've started hearing weird things.
I'm convinced that the piano samples are out of tune. The sample I use most is the Large C7, and as I was playing a piece in E-minor, I noticed that some sound was hurting my ear. I have a piece where there's this big Em chord: Left E3,G3,B3 and right G4,B4 and G5. That's quite a lot of thirds. The melody comes from the leading note F#5 --> G5, and when I play that G5 it sounds too high. That is weird! And I'm quite convinced that I'm right about this. I'm a music teacher- piano student at a professional music school, definitely not tone-deaf and i've even followed an (amateur) course in piano tuning.

Here's why I'm doubting myself: It's the same with all the samples. And that's kinda weird, because no piano recorded is tuned the same.
So far I've heard it on the C7 (L), S4 (XL) and the U3(XL) (all yamaha's though), I haven't added any others to my piano since i've noticed it.
I have not been able to find any other notes that feel particularly unpleasant, and transposing the piano and playing it in the new, relative Em key, makes no difference.

I am aware of these things called equal temperament and stretch, but still, it feels out of tune. I have not had this with other digital piano's before.

I'm curious of you guys can hear this as well! Perhaps someone with absolute/perfect pitch could shed some light on this situation.

Thanks for reading, trying it out for yourself, and agreeing or disagreeing with me,

Arthur

PS: I posted it in this forum because it's the gear I have, but it could very well count for the Stage too.
Last edited by ArthurS on 10 Nov 2014, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Nord piano samples out of tune?


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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby maurus » 10 Nov 2014, 22:43

Welcome to the world of Clavia!

In all the samples of acoustic pianos Clavia has hidden a few imperfections (and therefore there is no way to get rid of them). This can be an odd tuning here or there, or a sharp attack sticking out besides its neighbours (like from a hardened hammer), or a particularly strong overtone in a key. Some of the keys are clearly sampled with slight tuning differences between the individual strings making up the key. Why did they do this? Quite obviously in order to generate realism, and I'd say in many contexts it works. In a standard Jazz or Pop context the odd key will not cause huge problems. In "silent listening Jazz" or in classical piano music you will hear it and may be bothered by it (I often am and had to learn to cope with such imperfections, but see note 1 below). However I still prefer this approach to the nearly 'dead' samples of other makes - they may be perfectly in tune, but lack character.

The more recent grand piano samples have a little less of these things, especially the Grand Imperial (Boesendorfer) and the Fazioli. Still, a grand piano that would be in perfect preparation for a concert or a studio recording (satisfying the standards of an artist such as Pierre-Laurent Aimard) is - in my view - lacking in the collection.

Edit: Note 1. Be frank: How often do you sit in front of a piano that is perfectly tuned? How often would you find, on careful inspection, a few imperfections? In acoustic pianos we often don't notice these things because we simply expect them. A few hours of playing after a grand has been freshly tuned *and* voiced, a few warm days or cold nights, and they're back there. Does it bother us? More often than not: No.
Last edited by maurus on 10 Nov 2014, 22:59, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby ArthurS » 10 Nov 2014, 23:08

It feels weird, to simulate reality in such a way by planning imperfections "So you won't be disappointed by the real deal piano at your concert".

I like the Fazioli, but there's a metal ringing bothering me, and I find the Bösendorfer woolly and mushy(which might sound weird, but it is the literal translation of something that makes sense in Dutch). I really like the straight-forwardness, clarity and 'simple' sound of the Yamaha's.

The good news is that my ear works fine...!

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby ArthurS » 10 Nov 2014, 23:10

You make a fair point in your edit. I expected 'perfect' recorded instruments, because that's what I'm used to in electrics.

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby maurus » 10 Nov 2014, 23:21

ArthurS wrote:It feels weird, to simulate reality in such a way by planning imperfections "So you won't be disappointed by the real deal piano at your concert".!


Well, the reason is rather to get the audience in a live situation saying: "Well now that sounds like a real (not to say: organic) piano." Check out some of Dave Ferris' earlier posts... ;)

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby zmike1 » 07 Aug 2015, 18:37

There is only one Nord piano sample that is close to being perfectly in tune. It's the Yamaha conservatory grand #2. I'm guessing the instrument was tuned by Yamaha, a company that trains its own tuners. As for playing pianos that are likely out of tune, I am also a tuner and I tune them before I play. My tuning devices confirm your belief that the Nord samples are mostly imperfectly tuned. You can check this with an iPhone if you download Peterson's Strobosoft app which is not free but worth the money. All my previous electronic pianos were perfectly tuned with the glaring exception of the first Casio privia which I bought and returned to the dealer.

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby RedLeo » 08 Aug 2015, 20:44

It's the usual "Yamaha versus Nord" situation. People used to the polished perfection of Yamaha digital pianos are often taken aback at the much rawer, more natural Nord piano sounds. It's just a different approach to piano sounds really. It is worth persevering for a bit though; you may come to appreciate it, but you need to stop analysing it and just go with how it is. In the long run, it might be for you or it might not.

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby cphollis » 09 Aug 2015, 06:22

I've played both Yamaha digitals, as well as Nords, and -- for what it's worth -- I'm a fan of raw, authentic sounds. Warts and all :)
I think I have gear issues ....

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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby Dave Ferris » 09 Aug 2015, 09:53

I have one of the top three tuners in LA that works on my Steinway D and sometimes because of the large soundboard of the 9' piano "floating", it can go out of tune the day after he tunes it and then the next day be perfectly fine. It kinda can drive one crazy if you obsess over it too much. I always had smaller Yamaha pianos (C7e & S6) and after this guy tuned them , they would hold tune perfectly great for sometimes almost a year. So yes, even with a top tier piano like my D, there are imperfections. But I've grown to love and appreciate the warmer Steinway sound over the Yamaha.

I had less a problem with the Nord piano samples sounding out of tune and more with the samples thinning out in the higher registers. Also with the sound to action, player connection, not being even up and down the keyboard, in all registers, like the Yamaha CP4 or CP5.

That said, there's a vibey character to their pianos , especially recorded (less live) that I occasionally miss from the CP4. I constantly was frustrated with the Fatar action though while playing uptempo jazz lines. I've seen quite a few people where it doesn't seem to bother them , but for me , the not so responsive action definitely got in my way of being fluid and creative on solos.

I sold my NP2 almost a year ago and would like to get another *Nord Piano* at some point, but only if they improve on the action for pianists. I know I'm probably in the minority there as most rock/pop people are ok with it.

Another thought- with higher quality full range speakers and a good di/preamp source - a lot of those imperfections , along with those harsh digital transients can be tamed. The higher speakers and pre seem to blend all the blemishes and soften the jarring quality.
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Re: Nord piano samples out of tune?

Postby RedLeo » 09 Aug 2015, 17:34

Dave Ferris wrote:I know I'm probably in the minority there as most rock/pop people are ok with it.


No, you're right on the money here. The action's fine until you start pushing it, and then it just can't cope.

Dave Ferris wrote:Another thought- with higher quality full range speakers and a good di/preamp source - a lot of those imperfections , along with those harsh digital transients can be tamed. The higher speakers and pre seem to blend all the blemishes and soften the jarring quality.


This too. With a set of high quality headphones plugged in directly, it's amazing just how many of the issues people complain about don't actually exist in the samples.

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