Nord User Forum

[pablomastodon]

For me the NL2 vs. NL2X debate is all about the memory. NL2X kicks backside on NL2 in that area. There are people who will swear that the NL2 has a "gutsier" sound, but I am not one of them, nor is RedLeo apparently. The NL2 does use 20-bit D/A converters and the NL2X uses 24-bit, so there is some theoretical basis for saying they're different, but I don't think this is meaningfully significant in any real world audio sense.

Pablo

[curvebender]

And the same goes for the G2X, had it twice over the years as well!

Supreme idea, great interface, no bass.. Damn it!!

I have to take exception to that. Plenty of bass to be found in both NL3 and G2. I frequently use G2E for bass duties and play extremely bass-heavy reggae music through extremely bass-capable sound system (Bag End speakers). My main bass unit is Micro Modular, mainly for the simplicity of having one unit handle most all bass duties, but G2 is every bit as strong at producing bass sound when programmed to do so.

Bless,

Pablo

It must be my ears then...

No but seriously, my personal experience is that bass is somewhat lacking from the NL3 and G2. Compared with the NL4 and the A1, but also compared to other various VA:s.

But, if it boils down to taste and preferences rather than hard specs, let's agree to disagree.

But again, despite my thoughts on the above mentioned synths, I still love them!

If only I had room (and the money) to collect them all like you Pablo, you're a lucky guy!!

[Spider]

Hey!
What happened to the title of my thread?



(I suppose it was changed by the admins because it drifted from a "very quick question" to a kind of comparative encyclopedia about the Lead series... ok fair enough, no problem with that!)

[Marlowes]

I did an A-B test between the NL2 and NL2X a while ago. Result: no difference whatsoever. The 2X keyboard feels more precise though, on the 2 I always get the impression that the volocity is more arbitary, or harder to control. I ended up putting weights in my 2 keyboard, which helps a bit, but it makes the instrument feel a bit different too (the keys feel longer, a strange sensation, especially when you get out a ruler and concide that they are identical).

I also A-B-tested the NL and NL2. Result: identical ... with a twist. The output of one is phase-inverted compared to the other, which means that if you listen to bassy sounds especially in headphones, they sound different. But flip the phase invert switch on your mixer on one of them, and they sound identical. Well, barring one more thing: the 2/2X have a couple of more parameters: distorsion, and the filter tracking goes in steps of 1/3 rather than on/off on the original NL. So some of the factory patches, for instance, sound slightly different becuase of this. But if you set up an NL2 with the same patch as an NL it will sound the same.

There is however one thing about the original NL: its D/A converters need to be set up using trimpots inside the machine. If the trimming is often, there will be various types of distorsion in the output. The NL2 has newer D/A converters which don't need this. Hence, an NL whose adjustments have 'gone off' (either inadvertantly or on purpose) will sound different from the others.

There is a difference between the NL/NL2 and NL2X apart from the difference in internal memory (and consequent lack of PCMCIA slot): the NL2X does not have 'Pelles mode', which is an alternative experimental synthesis mode that the original firmware programmer Peter Jubel added to the synth in order to demonstrate that with different firmware it could be a completely different machine. Clavia (apparently) weren't interested, so it was never pursued any further (Peter later left Clavia to join Propellerhead Software, though I don't know if that was the reason). Google 'Nord Lead Pelles mode' to find out more, and note that the volume control is inoperable in this mode so all sounds come out at full volume. In Pelles mode the Nord Lead will produce sounds you never thought it could make. It's quite an experience the first time. Unfortunately, there's no documentation so you have no idea what's going on, but it's a pretty cool feature.

Regarding the Nord Lead 3, there's something about this machine that is lacking in the sound department. Lack of bass or not, there's something in the machine that causes it not to sound like I'd expect an analog synthesizer would. I had one for a year, and while it was great at producing wishy-washy sweepy slrupy sounds, it didn't really do what I wanted it to. Admittedly, it is labelled as 'Advanced Subtrative Synthesizer' on the front panel, so Clavia could definitely be forgiven for it not being an 'Analog Modeling' machine, as it apparently was not intended to accurately imitate an analog synthesizer, but more start in the subtractive synthesis realm and move on from there. I think one of the reasons for its failure in the market (only about 4700 or so where made) I think is this fact - people were expecting a synth that sounded analog, and it didn't, 24 voices and 5 voice unison or not! In addition, it was rather expensive, and I think Clavia underestimated how much poeple (or at least, how much enough people) would pay for this type of machine, even if it utilized the unsurpassed LED rings for parameter feedback. Another thing that hits you with the NL3 is that it is rather complex, there are two oscillators with umpteen modes (resulting in up to 5 oscillators per patch), the LFO's can run as envelopes, the mod envelope can run as an LFO, there are two filters in a slightly unfamiliar 'dual filter' setup, there's no single knob for keyboard tracking adjustment, if you don't want full tracking you need to set it up with a morph. Several knobs have dual functions (a feature carried on to the NL4 and NL A1 which is why I don't like them as much as the 2) which doesn't improve the user intuitiveness.

For me, also, the NL3 started carrying with it a 'preset' concept which Clavia apparently successfully have emplyoed on the Nord Electro and Nord Stage instruments, for instance, you can adjust the amount of unison, but it's always 5 voices. To me that's too much. I'd love to have a two-voice unison like the NL2 but I've got to use two slots for that. There's a separate vibrato oscillator, but you can only set it between 4 and 8 Hz. Why? It's a synthesizer for crying out loud, so give the user the control. Expanding the vibrato range would not cost anything, neither in terms of software nor user experience. (Admittedly, the 2/2X also has similar annoyances. Why does unison jump from 2 to 4 voices in mono mode for instance? Yes, it would be nice to have sometimes, but not all the time).

Well, the 'preset' concept is still there with the NL4 and especially the A1, but I think they've tried to find a sweet spot in the market with a machine that strikes a good balance between sound, usability and cost. Which precludes the glorious LED rings, or the complex oscillator and filter setup from the NL3.

For me, user interface wise, the NL A1, fantastic as it can sound, is actually a step back from the NL2. Since they only have one LFO, which can double as an envelope, and no LEDs indicating the modulation routings, it's impossible to look at the panel and see what modulates what. Yes, there's the monitor function so you can find out what the four mod level controls are set at, but compared to the NL2/2X where you can see at a glance what modulates what, it's a step back. Having no dedicated filter envelope is also annoying for a similar reason. The oscillator configuration is another oddity. If you want to set up two detuned oscillators, they need to have the same waveform. I understand the oscillator configuration concept is easier for newcomers to understand, but for me its counter intuitive. I found myself thinking about what I'd want to set up using a proper two oscillator scheme, and then 'translating' it to the A1 parlance.

Ok, enough A1 bashing. It's a great sounding instrument in the right hands, and there seem to be lots of those hands, so kudos to those making great music with it.

Personally, my Clavia Dream Synthesizer would be the sound quality and effects of the NL A1 married with the architecture of the NL 2X, and at the same price point as the latter. Until then I'm hanging on to my NL2 (just), and exploring other VA's like the Audiothingies P6.

[RedLeo]

Lack of bass or not, there's something in the machine that causes it not to sound like I'd expect an analog synthesizer would.

I can't help feeling that if people took the Lead 3 for what it is rather than what it isn't, they'd kick themselves for not realising just what you could do with this thing. Remember, the earlier Leads - including yours - were also criticised for being "thinner", "brighter", more "digital sounding" than traditional analog polys. But I bet you love yours for what it can do, not for what it can't. And as for not being able to get "traditional" fat analog sounds out of it, that's simply not true. You can, and quite easily. And yes, I have played, toured or recorded with every major league analog poly. My ears work just fine

Another thing that hits you with the NL3 is that it is rather complex...[lots of techno-babble]....

Mmmm, give me more!

For me, user interface wise, the NL A1, fantastic as it can sound, is actually a step back from the NL2.

If they gave it all the extra features you wanted, its existence would be pointless as it would be pretty much the same as the Lead 4.

I too, wish that there was a "best of both worlds" Lead A1/4 hybrid, but I've learnt too well that designers and manufacturers don't think the same as musicians...

But I think that it's reasonable to hope that the next Lead will incorporate the A1 engine or a more advanced version of it.

*Cough*fiveoctavekeyboard*cough*

[pablomastodon]

Hey!
What happened to the title of my thread?

(I suppose it was changed by the admins because it drifted from a "very quick question" to a kind of comparative encyclopedia about the Lead series... ok fair enough, no problem with that!)

More likely changed because "a very quick question" doesn't do much to describe the contents of the thread, and having a descriptive title is more meaningful to forum members who wish to decide whether or not to spend their time opening/reading any particular post. Ultimately, when there are tens of thousands of posts, it is nice for archival purposes to use subject lines which have meaning.

*Cough*fiveoctavekeyboard*cough*

with AT

pablo

[RedLeo]

...and cherries on top...

[RedLeo]

Lack of bass or not, there's something in the machine that causes it not to sound like I'd expect an analog synthesizer would.

I can't help feeling that if people took the Lead 3 for what it is rather than what it isn't, they'd kick themselves for not realising just what you could do with this thing. Remember, the earlier Leads - including yours - were also criticised for being "thinner", "brighter", more "digital sounding" than traditional analog polys. But I bet you love yours for what it can do, not for what it can't. And as for not being able to get "traditional" fat analog sounds out of it, that's simply not true. You can, and quite easily. And yes, I have played, toured or recorded with every major league analog poly. My ears work just fine

When the original Nord Lead came out, I remember trying it out in the store, and walking away an hour or two later more or less stunned by the experience. (I didn't actually purchase one until the NL2 came along by which time I had some money saved, and the NL2 seemed to fix the most glaring misses on the NL). The NL3 didn't do the same for me. I realize that there are people who do wonderful things with the NL3 and that's great, but for me it just didn't work.

I think it's very true that one should take the machine for what it can do rather than what it can't. On the other hand, if a machine seems to be able to do something which is not particularly interesting for me, I loose interest.

If they gave it all the extra features you wanted, its existence would be pointless as it would be pretty much the same as the Lead 4.

Yes, very true, which is why I don't think they'll ever build something like that. I have my own hate-love relationship with the NL4, there's something about that machine that comes across very harsh and raspy, which I don't like, but whenever I come across one it's great fun to play it for an hour, much like the NL2 was in the beginning.

I too, wish that there was a "best of both worlds" Lead A1/4 hybrid, but I've learnt too well that designers and manufacturers don't think the same as musicians...

Yes, that's very true. Above all, manufacturers have to make a profit which means their products need to fit into whatever market is currently available.

But I think that it's reasonable to hope that the next Lead will incorporate the A1 engine or a more advanced version of it.

Yes, absolutely. Though I think it will be a whlie before Clavia release another synth. They can't really go very much further with the Nord Lead concept, given that the NL4 is architecturaly fairly similar to the NL2.

To me, what seems to be happening is that the market that the original Nord Lead occupied might be taken over by DIY synths like the Audiothingies P6. There's not enough profit for the big manufacturers to make machines like that, and technology has advanced so far that it's possible to make that type of machine in your back yard. And since there's not the same revenue requirements, such instruments can be closer to what specific users need (who have a similar mindset to whoever created the synth), rather than trying to fit in a larger market.

[RedLeo]

The Audiothingies P6 looks great, and we're certainly living in a land of plenty at the moment as far as new synths are concerned - good times indeed. But I doubt that these types of things will have much impact in the market overall. It's great for hobbyists and DIYers, and people on a tight budget, and the idea of being able to tailor your synth to your own requirements is fantastic. But this only represents a tiny fraction of the market. Convenience is always a huge selling point - after all how many people build their cars from kits rather than just buying one from a dealer?

You're right about there being no new Nord Lead for a long time - I'm certainly not holding my breath. I didn't expect the Lead 4 at all, I also though that the concept had already gone as far as it could go. But the A1 seems to be a huge success, and I have a feeling that the Lead series is fairly close to the company's heart, even if it's not their biggest seller.

I must admit that I find it very frustrating that, although there are a ton of new and exciting analog and VA polys on the market, I'm struggling to find one that fits the bill for me. The market is clearly all about good sound and easily accessible features, but in a small footprint and most importantly, at a reasonable price or lower But for my needs, smaller sized keys, smaller keyboards and external power supplies just don't cut it. And they're not minor issues. I've got to be able to actually play my music on my instrument, while knowing that it won't let me down on stage, night after night after night. I get paid to get it right, and for keyboard players who are utterly dependent on the tech actually working, excuses don't cut it - "I'm sorry, but someone tripped over the power supply and the lead pulled out and broke". Don't expect much sympathy from the band leader...

And it's a real shame, the Korg ARP Odyssey sounds spectacular, as does the new Prophet 6. But I quite literally can't play music on them, so they're completely useless to me. But I understand I'm not the manufacturers target market, so I'll just have to continue grumbling pointlessly on the intewebz

[RedLeo]

In all honesty, you're probably right about the P6. It will probably not make a large impact on the market due to its DIY image. (Incidentally, it is available ready built though for those that don't want to build it themselves). But it does put things in perspective. In 1995, the Nord Rack gave you four voices using a DSP, in 2015 you can get a six-voice VA using a more or less run-of-the-mill microcontroller that some chap in France has hacked together, with more functionality than the Nord Lead (the P6 has effects and more voices, but is not multitimbral though). Even if it is the result of the tremendous technology advancement over the years, this particular manifestation still intrigues me.

I think the problem that manufacturers like Clavia face when it comes to pure synthesizers is that they get too expensive for what they are, which severely limits what can be marketed. The most expensive parts of a modern synthesizer are the keyboard and front panel. So you've got a basic cost that you've got to cover if you want to build something that's sturdy enough and has enough knobs. So to capitalize on that investment, manufacturers tend to build fairly large instruments like the Nord Stage (or Korg Z1 or whatever other 'big' synth you can think of), and there seems to be a market for that. But for those of us that want a pure synthesizers, manufacturers are faced with the dilemma that if they just strip out the organ, brass and piano, and put a real synth front panel on it, you're going to get an instrument at the same price point but with essentially fewer features, since the electronics are basically the same and it's 'just' a synth.

So we need to arrive at a compromise. Cut an octave off the keyboard which brings down the basic price of the machine. Then, cut down on the front panel to save that cost. The question is how to minimize the front panel while still giving the user a fair amount of control. To me it is evident that Clavia have really put a lot of effort into keeping the front panel of the A1 in line with a 'one-knob-per-function' paradigm. Unfortunately, to keep the number of controls down, they've minimized the architecture to the point where it actually starts making the machine more awkward to use IMHO. It really annoys me as an engineer as I know what hardware they have and know what they could have done with it. In my opinion, with the A1, they should have junked the 'one knob per function' paradigm (which they haven't managed to maintain anyway, many knobs have a dual button-like function, and many buttons are the same), and gone for a front panel more like the Audiothingies: a fairly wide display, with 6 or 8 soft knobs (endless encoders), and a row of buttons to quickly jump between the different modules in the machine, i.e. one page for Osc 1, one for Osc 2, one for the Filter etc. To boot, you get instant feedback of the current parameter values, which you don't with a 'panel full o' knobs'. The minimized front panel would bring the price down (and the display doesn't have to be graphic either, a two-line LCD would suffice nicely, and still maintain that 'retro' feeling of the LED displays, although a graphic OLED would be really sleek), and with a clever UI design it would be quick to work with. But then it would be a Nord ... would it? I still think that if they want to make a budget machine like the A1, then scale down the UI but keep the architecture of the previous Nords, rather than scaling down the architecture to fit the front panel budget.

And then we'd get a synth where we could adjust the filter keyboard tracking with just one hand.

Which is why my A1 left a week after my P6 arrived. I know they're not really comparable in many ways, but I find the P6 infinitely more fun to program and it sounds great. Clavia should employ the Audiothingies guy for their next line of synths. (I wish they'd employ me but that hasn't happened either... ).

Btw, @RedLeo, what's your issue with the Prophet-6 ? I can understand the Koddessey, as it has mini keys; but the Prophet has full-sized ones. Is it because it only has four octaves? Personally, my biggest gripe with the Prophet is the price. It really would have to sound good for that price, and if I had that sort of money I'd probably try to find a second hand Alesis A6 (16 analog voices, horrible front panel graphics though, and questionable reliability, so definitely not a clear choice).

BTW, grumble on. We all are part of the 'market' so given enough grumbling, someone might listen. (Not holding my breath though).