Nord's classical Virtual Analog Synth Nord LEAD 1/2/2x/3/4/A1 and Nord Rack versions

Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby pablomastodon » 25 Jan 2014, 10:12

I not trying to perpetuate an argument either, but feel compelled to point out that it is not correct to say that the wheel's use is limited to one of four parts; the wheel operates as to all four parts. Indeed, your initial complaint was that the wheel operates as to all four parts. What is it you want? Four wheels? There once was a Nord synth with three wheels. It was discontinued for lack of interest from the general public. Nord has been there and done that.

In any event, the essence of this aspect of the design is not new. It has been that way since Nord invented the term "virtual analog" nearly twenty years ago when they released the Nord Lead 1. The design remains consistent with its origins. Slots which have wheel morphs programmed into their respective programs will necessarily respond to wheel movements.

With regard to "...users asking for adjustments..." I suspect that there are some who do not fully understand what is involved here. This is nothing like buying a hamburger at a fast food joint and then going back to the counter to ask for more ketchup. I can understand that kind of knee-jerk reaction because I have at times in the past felt the same way with prior synths -- why can't they just (insert desired custom mod here). Now having had the opportunity to occasionally peek behind the curtain for a quick and cursory glance at what goes into creating these kinds of things, I have a deeper understanding of what is involved. In actual practice many of the things being asked for here are quite labor intensive with regard to programming. Additionally, there can be hardware constraints.

It can be reasonably argued that an instrument maker has an obligation to be responsive to the desires of the community which has funded its success by purchasing instruments. But as a musician where does one draw the line between playing what one wants to play in the way one wants to play it, and simply playing what "the listening public" wants to hear? This is all about the practice of art. Just as most every musician is trying to practice art in their music, this small handful of Swedes has chosen to practice the art of making instruments. Surely the best music is that which seeks its own path artistically. When I once asked a producer I respected how he determined what people wanted to hear his response was, "I don't. I try to please myself." That's what Nord has done from the beginning. They are true to their art. Many musicians seem to recognize that metaphysical connection, consciously or otherwise, and draw inspiration from it. It's part of the Nord mystique. I choose to focus my attention on the wondrous fact that this group of only ~two dozen people has created this line of living breathing musical instruments, at Swedish labor rates, capable of going forth into the world and doing battle with Asian behemoth corporations, and winning. They are still alive and kicking after a couple decades. And they continure to release instruments which are kickass (NS2, C2D, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera). There are often unseen reasons behind things. It is not right to ascribe uncaring or evil motives behind circumstances which are not fully known. The simple fact that Nord has accomplished the many things which they have accomplished over these many years demonstrates, I think, that they have learned one or two things along the way, that they have a superior knowledge base. Who among us could do the same as they have done?

When I once expressed some of the above sentiments privately in an IM to a fellow forum member I received this response:

(Nord has) done - and continue to do - an outstanding job, and deserve all the support and cheering on I can give them. People and companies like this make the world a better place. They deserve all the success they've got, and long may they continue.

Couldn't say it better myself. Consider the alternative...

Pablo
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior


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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby chvad » 25 Jan 2014, 18:07

Sigh. I do t want 4 wheel. I just want the interface of my instrument to able to be able to access 4 multitimbral parts individually or allow for that option. The keys don't play all four slots at once. A computer isn't needed for that. I'd like the wheel to have the option to so the same. That's all. Why this request is an issue, in a forum filling up with requests from a number of other people, is beyond me.
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby Mr_-G- » 25 Jan 2014, 18:43

chvad wrote:I just want the interface of my instrument to able to be able to access 4 multitimbral parts individually or allow for that option. The keys don't play all four slots at once.


Uh? Well yes keys can play all slots at once if they are active. In the NS2 I often have 2 slots active, I presume in the NL4 is the same, or am I wrong?
One option that would work: save the same patch in a different (the next?) bank position, but the only difference between patches is the assignment of the morph to the slots. Sorted!
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Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby chvad » 25 Jan 2014, 19:38

I'm just saying that I have the option with the notes sounding or not sounding all at once.

I like your suggestion but for live performances I frequently shift between active parts. So all 4 slots are being used simultaneous and I'd like to be able to use the morph wheel for each slot individually. If I have sustained parts on all four slots I can't switch between differently saved patches because I'll lose those sustained parts. All of this has to do with live performance. In the studio none of this is an issue but I have other gear for the studio. I grabbed the nord specifically for touring so that's mainly where my mind is at.
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby Mr_-G- » 25 Jan 2014, 20:11

Wouldn't it be somewhat complicated to implement? What combination of buttons (if any available) would be necessary to make the current slot(s) listen to the wheel and easily changed live? I guess that this is one of those things that sounds a good idea when you need it, but most users would not think about. If the Clavia guys read the forum, they should already aware of your wish, so who knows!

Another last suggestion (and I am running out of those!): control some morphs in one slot with the wheel, and the other slot(s) with the control pedal.
Or if you got your feet already busy doing things, you can build this thing and use that instead:
accessories-and-amplification-f8/diy-ribbon-controller-t4160.html
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby chvad » 26 Jan 2014, 00:25

"Wouldn't it be somewhat complicated to implement? What combination of buttons (if any available) would be necessary to make the current slot(s) listen to the wheel and easily changed live?"

On every multitimbral synthesizer I've ever owned (Alesis Ion, Kawai K-1, Kawai k5000s, Waldork Microwave XTk, Novation KS4 and Yamaha CS6x) the local controls (knobs, wheels) only ever affected the "active" patch on multi setups). In the case of the Ion you could specify which patches would and wouldn't respond to local controls. My preference would be that (like the keys) the physical controls on the Nord ALL only respond to the actively selected slot. I just want the wheel to behave the same way. If I stack two patches, the wheel affects both. That's ENTIRELY understandable and it makes sense. For four entirely separate instruments for 4 separate slots, it does not. As it stands, I have to choose which of ONE of those four I can morph or all at the same time. That's oddly limiting especially if you are actively using 4 programs in one set and want the morph behavior on all four independent of one another. It's a multitimbral synthesizer but the physical behavior of the wheel (and pitch stick for that matter) treats the instrument like it's monotimbral and under the assumption that all four slots are always going to be used at the same time as a single patch. however, the knobs do not. the keys do not. All in all, If it can't it can't. If they see it a something worth changing they won't. That's all fine but I don't thing there isn't anything weird or uncommon about the request.

Regarding the control pedal idea, I don't currently have one sitting around (only sustain), will the slots view the control pedal independently of morph wheel settings? If that's the case I'd def look into that. Also, your ribbon controller project looks fantastic! Really fun and simple DIY is the best!
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby pablomastodon » 26 Jan 2014, 11:35

Just a note here re: Mr. G's suggestion: on the NL4 the wheel and cc pedal are functionally parallel wrt morphs. That is, wheel and pedal perform same function (unless pedal is configured to control overall volume in menu). So that won't work.

Note that pitch bend CAN be individualized on per slot basis by setting independent bend ranges on each slot. If you wish to have a slot not respond to pb, simply set the pn range to zero. This actually yields some interesting additional possibilities. By varying pb ranges on different slots it is possible to bend a single unison note into a chord.

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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby Mr_-G- » 26 Jan 2014, 12:50

Thanks Pablo, I wrongly assumed that wheel and control pedal as morph sources were independent as in the NS2. Now I see that the Manual is explicit about it. And quite interesting that Velocity can be used as morph source too.
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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby pablomastodon » 26 Jan 2014, 18:41

Yeah, I was pretty bummed when I discovered that. I thoroughly enjoy the ability to use wheel and pedal as independent morph sources on the NS2, but eventually have come to understand that there are sometimes technical reasons why some of these kinds of design decisions are made, reasons which will not be obvious to the layperson/player.

For example, the polyphony could actually be higher on the instrument, but for the Impulse Morph. These things relate back to DSP capacity. A quantity of DSP must be held in reserve in order to accommodate possible Impulse Morph demands, so a limit is enforced on polyphony to ensure that the instrument does not crash into the capacity ceiling, causing potentially unpleasant audio results.

And this is why I have learned to accept these kinds of things in an "it is what it is" mindset...

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Re: Morph Wheel Behavior

Postby Muied Lumens » 05 Jul 2016, 01:40

...so am I right in assuming that Pitch Bend and Mod wheel affects all slots at once, in single mode? And the only way to avoid this issue is to switch off pitch bend and morph for the other slots?

This seems counter intuitive to me, especially as previous leads did not work this way, where only the active slot was affected. This made it great for live playing, and was truly "4 synths in one". Being able to control one of these synths (slots) via midi and play another live from the keyboard seems quite obvious to me, although I take the point of seeing it from a layman's perspective. I have a NL4 keyboard and have had various Leads since the start in 1995 and have become so used to having "4 in 1" that I thought I was missing something... I still kinda hope I have.

Old thread, hope it is ok to ressurect it.
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