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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby Bassics101 » 04 Oct 2016, 21:47

Hi analogika,
It can be heard when the headphones connected directly into the 5D. Guess I didn't make clear. No mixer or PA involved. I am familiar with digital clipping and analog overdriven clipping, and it isn't like either. It's more like the key click, but with intermittent pops. It also doesn't happen just as the keys are depressed, but, as best I can recall right now, it begins just after.

I think that I can add an MP3 to a message using the full editor. If this is not resolved or reproduced by someone else, I'll see if I can record it and try to post asap, but that might not happen till this weekend.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)


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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby theGman » 06 Oct 2016, 02:22

I have the same problem; sound simulates a bad cord sound with a dirty contact. Seems to be a tied to rotation speed of the Leslie. Very irritating, as if Nord copied the sound from a worn out Leslie or something. I just received my kb a few weeks ago, fwiw. Sounds like crap.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby shirley » 06 Oct 2016, 05:11

pablomastodon wrote:Nope, no way to do that on per program basis, except perhaps on G2 modular, which doesn't possess the pre-configured Nord tonewheel model, but does possess the ability to create one of your own liking.

In the real world with real tonewheels the musician will have her or his instrument set up by a tech to suit their personal preference and then play a whole show on that instrument. Sure, guitar players may change guitars many times in an evening, but no tech is going to come out on stage to readjust click levels or crosstalk or anything else on a Hammond between songs in the middle of a set. Yes, with the advent of these kinds of digital instruments it is now possible to accommodate these kinds of aural desires, but I believe that on some level Nord's design objective is to retain some portion of that real world experience -- to make it closer to behavior/feel of "the real thing."


I could not care less about the 'click levels', unless the level of the click is way, way too much. 'Crosstalk' on a Hammond is highly overrated. I have a '57 B3. No 'cross talk'. And that's the way I like it. An old, abused Hammond might have some 'crosstalk'. Once you step on the volume pedal the 'crosstalk' and the 'click' will probably become a non-factor. IMHO

Pablo, you are right in that - these Hammond artifacts (on a real Hammond organ) can not be controlled on a night to night basis. It all depends on the overall condition of your Hammond B3.

Keyboard clicks (more than the usual), too much 'cross-talk', and too much distortion are symptoms of a Hammond organ (and/or the Leslie cabinet) that need some maintenance done by a keyboard tech.

I'm afraid that,today, keyboard players think that a Hammond B3 that sounds like it needs maintenance - is THE Hammond B3 sound. And I'm thinking that, sadly, Nord/Clavia does too. And that's why there are so many lousy organ presets on my NE5D 73.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby analogika » 06 Oct 2016, 13:09

theGman wrote:I have the same problem; sound simulates a bad cord sound with a dirty contact. Seems to be a tied to rotation speed of the Leslie. Very irritating, as if Nord copied the sound from a worn out Leslie or something. I just received my kb a few weeks ago, fwiw. Sounds like crap.


One of the things that annoyed the crap out of me on my Leslie 145 (a 122 in a shorter case), now sadly destroyed in a fire, was that it would loudly "pop" through the speaker every time I switched speeds.

This was not a badly-kept speaker or a defect; it was simply an artifact of the design. There was no fix for this until I got an after-market kit installed that, IIUC, tied the actual moment of switching to the phase of the audio signal to eliminate the pop.

Never noticed this on the nord, though -- neither on the electro 2, nor on the Stage 2.
Last edited by analogika on 06 Oct 2016, 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby Bassics101 » 08 Oct 2016, 20:27



As promised, here is a clip of the sounds. Hope this works. There is a distortion that starts when the third key is pressed, and more so when four keys pressed. It only happens when, B3 mode, split keyboard, leslie on. This may be normal, just asking. But if normal why would it only occur with keyboard split? Gives me something to do while watching this crazy wind and rain from Matthew, while I still have power...
Attachments
Organ mix 1.mp3
clip of organ
(243.91 KiB) Downloaded 170 times
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby michael_C1 » 08 Oct 2016, 23:10

shirley wrote:I have a '57 B3. No 'cross talk'. And that's the way I like it. An old, abused Hammond might have some 'crosstalk'. Once you step on the volume pedal the 'crosstalk' and the 'click' will probably become a non-factor. IMHO


I had a 1947 Hammond CV for many years, and it was a beauty, no crosstalk audible, chrome drawbars, a very clean sound, with some key click. I had aftermarket percussion installed and had it set up with a new Leslie 122RV. My band carried that thing everywhere.

shirley wrote:Keyboard clicks (more than the usual), too much 'cross-talk', and too much distortion are symptoms of a Hammond organ (and/or the Leslie cabinet) that need some maintenance done by a keyboard tech.


I agree.

shirley wrote:I'm afraid that,today, keyboard players think that a Hammond B3 that sounds like it needs maintenance - is THE Hammond B3 sound. And I'm thinking that, sadly, Nord/Clavia does too. And that's why there are so many lousy organ presets on my NE5D 73.


I agree here too, but would add that a lot of the salesmen in music stores don't have a clue either. Frankly, I wonder if Clavia has access to a good condition tonewheel Hammond and Leslie speaker, because their Electro 5 rotary sim is extremely noisy with no bottom end to speak of. That's NOT how a Leslie is supposed to sound, and that's why I sold my brand new E5 and bought an E4 instead, losing all the great features of the E5 so i'd have a decent Hammond/Leslie sound.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby jfenton » 09 Oct 2016, 00:41

Bassics101 wrote:

As promised, here is a clip of the sounds. Hope this works. There is a distortion that starts when the third key is pressed, and more so when four keys pressed. It only happens when, B3 mode, split keyboard, leslie on. This may be normal, just asking. But if normal why would it only occur with keyboard split? Gives me something to do while watching this crazy wind and rain from Matthew, while I still have power...

Sounds to me like a bad capacitor. I wonder if they use unique components on each section of the device which if they did might account for why it only happens on hammond.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby jeltz » 09 Oct 2016, 15:32

Confirmed the weird behaviour. And this clipping appears even in single organ mode. For example first 4 drawbars fully out, rotary stop, part mix knob turned fully to organ part, take E 13th chord starting from the second E. If you'll turn on the vibrato/chorus, you could create the clipping even by holding E 7th chord... When turning the part mix knob to the center, then you just need to hold more keys to get the clipping started. Not sure if that's bug or feature but doesn't sound good for me. When I've used FC7 pedal, then by decreasing volume with the pedal, the clipping disappeared. Decreasing volume from the E5 front panel didn't have any influence to the clipping.
Last edited by jeltz on 09 Oct 2016, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby Bassics101 » 09 Oct 2016, 16:13

Hi jeltz,
I tried those settings and didn't hear the noise. However, if I added drawbars 5 and 6 I did. I then tried with just bars 5 and 6 and can hear the noise. Maybe there's some variability with diff instruments? I didn't need to have part mix knob turned off center.

After a little more playing around with just bars 5 and 6 out, I found it happens when the chorus/vibrato is on, possibly only with that on. And C1 is worse than all other settings.

EDIT: happens without chorus/vibrato, just takes more bars being pulled out. And I don't have a pedal plugged in. I'm listening thru headphones plugged into the E5.
Last edited by Bassics101 on 09 Oct 2016, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pops and clicks in B3 modes (5d73)

Postby jeltz » 09 Oct 2016, 18:18

So for me it looks like some kind of design flaw as it appears most probably on all E5 devices. Unlike E3 (and also I think E4) the drive can't be switched off - there is no "clean" organ sound when rotary is on, the sound is always a bit distorted. And as the sound get's louder, when you pull out more drawbars, press more keys and/or switch on chorus, the sound gets more distorted. Unfortunatelly not in normal way but adding some cracks and digital clipping. When one uses swell pedal, the clipping could be avoided by not pushing pedal to the max volume. As on real hammond, the swell pedal is "connected" before drive and therefore affects the amount of distortion.
Pablo, please could You confirm this problem and report to Clavia. I guess this could be easily fixed by firmware update.
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