The Nord C1, C2 and C2D Organ Forum

My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby Nordstrom2 » 24 Jun 2012, 20:59

This post compares the Nord C2 dual manual organ to the new C2D model. I have no affiliation with Nord or any other music company – I’m just a player. I’ve tried to be as objective as I can be, but I make no claim to being a definitive source of information – other different opinions are most welcome.

I will provide details below (sorry for the long post), but let me give you my net up front. These are both excellent instruments that are a delight to play. They are very well made, and they recreate the original Hammond sound extremely well (I have a B3 sitting next to them so can compare). Which one you prefer depends on how you play.

There are a number of differences, but by far the big kahuna is the presence of the physical drawbars on the C2D versus the now-classic Nord lights on the C2. It may surprise you, but in my opinion, this is not a case of one being better than the other. If you are a player who likes to actively tweak the sound of the organ in real time by changing the registration while holding notes, then you will strongly prefer the new C2D. But if you are like most players who punch up a preset and play, then you will prefer the C2.

The main reason is that preset players will prefer the C2 over the C2D is that when you select a preset on the C2, the panel lights instantly change so you see exactly what registration is active, and you can even see it on a dark stage. You can tweak it in real time using the in/out panel buttons, though it is not as quick or as controllable as physical drawbars. The Ocean Beach aftermarket solution is a reasonable one for tweakers, but it still requires extra set-up.

The most significant downside of the C2D (outside of the extra cost) is that when you select a preset on the C2D, all you get is a single LED light above any drawbar that is active, with no information on the registration for that drawbar. Even the display (an advantage versus the three-digit readout on the C2) does not show what the registration is. So for presets (some of which are excellent, on both units), you are fully informed on the C2, and largely flying blind on the C2D. So which instrument you prefer is really a function of the kind of player you are and how much you use presets (you will prefer the C2) versus creating and tweaking your own registrations live (you will prefer the C2D).

Let me dive into the details of the changes. To make this long post easy to scan, I will organize it by topic, from the largest differences to the smallest, and give you my net immediately under each topic.

DRAWBARS
Net – It Depends on Your Style

The physical drawbars on the C2D duplicate a real Hammond console – two full sets for each manual as well as two pedal drawbars. No other portable organ on the market today, even those from Hammond, has the full set of 38 drawbars. Kudos to Nord for being aggressive.

One downside, especially relative to the Hammond SK2, is that the Nord C2D drawbars are sliders with fairly cheap molded plastic “ends” that the players uses to adjust them. Hammond uses the same drawbars on the SK2 that it uses on its full consoles, and the quality and feel is much better. That said, Nord made a reasonable compromise not to have the full physical drawbars on the C2D. Duplicating the real deal much more closely would have made the C2D unit deeper (the Nord style drawbars have the same adjustment length as my B3, but there is no “bar” that has to be accounted for), more expensive (having 38 full drawbars is very expensive – even the Hammond SK2 only has one set of 9), and heavier. I wish the cheap plastic ends were of better quality, but outside of that, the C2D drawbars are fine. Some purists will not like them, but for the reasons noted above, I think Nord made a reasonable compromise.

LEFT HAND DRAWBAR PRESET PANEL
Net – Advantage to the C2D

This is not the second most significant change, but since it is linked directly to the drawbars, I will cover it now. Nord moved the preset panel from the top (on the C2) down to the keyboard level (on the C2D). I like that location a lot. Easier to change presets quickly, and easy to connect your preset choice to the manual. In addition Nord added buttons to select either of the two physical drawbar sets connecte to the panel. So changing from the Bb preset (black preset key on a real Hammond) to the B natural preset, is piece of cake. Very handy.

Nord also duplicated the drawbar selection buttons on the drawbar presets themselves, letting you select the preset there if you prefer. In both cases, an LED light lets you know your selection. When a drawbar panel is active, you get lights both next to the drawbars and on the preset panel to the left of the each manual. Very well done.

The only thing that drives me a bit nuts is that on the preset panel to the left of the manuals, the preset for the second set of drawbars (to the right) is actually above the preset for the first. So top to bottom on the preset panel, you have Preset 1, Preset 2, Preset 3, Drawbars B and then Drawbars A. The last two are just backwards versus how I personally think about them. I’m sure I will adjust over time, but for now, I’m always selecting the wrong set because my logic is the order of the presents should be 1, 2, 3, and then A, B. A minor issue, but one that takes some getting used to.

DISPLAY
Net – Advantage to the C2D

The C2 only has a three-digit numerical display, with the programming codes for the System, MIDI and Sound menus printed on the panel to the right of the control section. It works (since you rarely use any of those commands in a performance and since the display is very bright and large so it is easy to see what number preset you are calling up on a dark stage). But information is limited to three digits, so you have to remember that preset 39 is Whiter Shade of Pale, etc.

The C2D has a 2x16 character display, similar to the other Nord keyboards. For presets you not only see the number, but the name (which you can change). And you also see the programming parameters on the display. The display is a much better (albeit more expensive) option.

The big downside is that the two-line display shows no information on the registrations or any other parameter in presets. In the Stage 2, for example, you can hold the Shift key and then move any physical control, and the display will show you the programmed setting for that control. I’m quite surprised that same functionality is not in the C2D, but it is not. You are flying blind on presets, with very limited knowledge outside of your ears about what is programmed in that preset.


The drawbars, the left drawbar preset panel and the display are the three major differences. Everything else is minor, but let me cover the differences I have found so far.

COLOR
Net – Which You Like Better Is a Personal Choice
The C2 uses the classic Nord red for the side panels and the metal panels. The C2D what I would describe as dark red burgundy side panels, and all the metal parts (panels, etc) are black.

When I first saw the bright red keyboards from Nord, I was completely turned off. I prefered much “classier” looking colors – black with walnut side panels was great by me. But over the years that red color has become part of the Nord trademark, and every musician I know now associates that red color with the very high quality products that Nord makes. You can tape over the name on stage if you want, but musicians instantly know you are playing a Nord.

The new C2D is very classy looking, and five years ago I would have strongly preferred it. And in some venues – churches come to mind – it would definitely be preferred. But since I also play a Stage 2, I’m actually fine with the C2, which matches the Stage 2.

POWER CORD in the U. S.
Net – Minor Advantage to C2D for U. S. consumers

Even in the U. S., the Stage units and the C2 use the European style cords, which are a bit hard to find in the U. S., especially in longer lengths. The C2D (at least the one I have here in the U. S.) uses a much more standard connector by U. S. norms. That is a plus for U. S. customers. I suspect Nord is still using the other connection in Europe, but do not know.

KEYBOARD FEEL AND CONSTRUCTION
Net – I Do Not Perceive a Huge Difference

I am told by reliable sources that Nord has added some additional strength to the frame of the C2, and has tweaked the keyboard to give it even more of a Hammond feel. Playing both the C2 and the C2D keyboards, I do perceive a small difference – the C2D seems to have a hair more resistance to it – but the difference is really subtle to me. I had two other people play both, and they perceived no difference at all.

Both Nords feel quite different from the real Hammond organs in the studio, and there are even some significant differences between the Hammonds. My net is that while I understand there are some differences in construction and keyboard feel between the C2 and C2D, I don’t really notice anything material. Frankly, they are both excellent, and they both play better than the keyboards on the real Hammonds (though those are 40-50 years old).

DIMENSIONS
Net – Not the Same, but Not Materially Different

The specks of the C2 and C2D show that they are have the exact same dimensions: 966 mm (38.0"), 163 mm (6.4"), 445 mm (17.5").

Measuring the two units in front of me, they are close but not the same. The keyboards are identical, of course. But the dimensions I measure (in inches are):
Length: both units are 38.0” long
Depth: The C2 is 17 1/8 inches but the C2D is 17 3/8 inches (which is the number quoted in the spec)
Height: The Nord C2 is 5 5/8 inches, the C2D is 5 7/8 inches

They both fit fine in the padded case that Nord sells to protect the instrument, but if you had a custom road case built for the C2, it is conceivable that the ¼ inch differences on two of the dimensions may affect your fit.

DELAY FEEDBACK LEVEL DISPLAY
Net – No Big Deal Either Way

One difference I noticed but have yet to explore is that the C2D has three levels of delay feedback displayed (two lights and then having both lit), versus two on the C2. I do not know if this is simply a difference in the display or if there are differences in the feedback programming. My guess is that once C2 users upgrade to the new OS, any differences in the program are ported to the C2, and the difference is only in the granularity of the display information.

SPEAKER MODEL DISPLAY LIGHTS
Net – No Big Deal Either Way

This also just seems to be a difference in the display. But the C2 used the two-light method to show the three different speaker models (Rotary, JC and Twin – both lights lit). The C2D has three separate lights, paralleling the Organ Model panel that is next to it. I like the parallel structure, but it’s a nit in the scheme of things.


That’s all I know so far. If there is a difference in sound between the two units, my aging ears have not yet picked it up.

Sorry for the long post, but this is a big purchase so I wanted to share what I’ve learned to benefit others who are considering the same choice.

Your millage and opinions may differ. If they do, please add the dialog. The choice between the C2 and the C2D is, in my opinion, a choice between two excellent products, where the “winner” depends on your needs and your style of playing.
Last edited by Nordstrom2 on 31 Jul 2012, 12:33, edited 2 times in total.

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My Impressions - C2 versus C2D


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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby dlargent » 25 Jun 2012, 22:07

Thanks for your post!

Your observation that the C2, with its LED drawbars, might be better on dark stages is interesting. I play in a lot of dark rooms, and I appreciate the C2's display. But outdoors on a very bright stage, it's difficult to see.

How about a C2D with luminous drawbars? That would be very 'TRON'!

Doug
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby jrosand » 27 Jun 2012, 18:36

I sold my C2 and just recently got the C2d. I'm torn between the led display of the C2 and the drawbars of the C2d. I also have the Hammond SK-2 and it's drawbars work the same way the Nord C2d does. On the Hammond the current drawbar setting is displayed on it's LCD display. I think Nord really had a better idea when they introduced the C1 and C2 with the led drawbar settings. The C2d drawbars are somewhat cumbersome when setting up the pipe organ patches and the Vox and Farfisa organs as well. Thankfully both models allow saving your settings to presets.

I've dealt with the same knob/slider update issue with the Yamaha Mofif line for years as well. I guess it is something we simply have to deal with in the digital realm.
Last edited by jrosand on 31 Jul 2012, 12:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby Mooser » 09 Jul 2012, 23:03

With all the advantages of the LED-two-button system in immediately reflecting organ type and preset, the big problem is in those two buttons. I wish Nord had decided, even if they wanted to offer the two-set-per-keyboard, to simply replace the two buttons with a single rocker or paddle (push away for less, pull for more, just like a drawbar) This would have retained the advantages of the LED-drawbutton system, and eliminated its only bad feature, the un-ergonomic, not-very-intuitive (in my opinion) two buttons. They could even make the rocker or paddle look like a draw bar end. And offering two sets per manual is a great idea.
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby Mooser » 09 Jul 2012, 23:12

Downloaded the C2D upgrade to my C2. That was very nice of Nord. The odd thing is, by marketing rules in the music-equipment biz as I understand them, the C2D is way underpriced! Yup, for just a few bucks more, once it's all discounted, you get all five sets of drawbars, which before the C2D could only be gotten on a vintage tonewheel or Hammond Suzuki top-line products. One would think Nord should charge at least $1000 more for that kind of exclusivity! And now they make the sound improvements and system improvements from the C2D available to C2 owners for the low, low price of-free! It was very, very considerate and generous of Nord to make those upgrades available to C2 owners, and I appreciate it! Thanks to them I have the sound of the C2D, and I still have a place to put a plate of food and a drink.
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby Quai34 » 02 Mar 2014, 10:07

Hi,
Just wanted to let you know that your review in deep was very usefull for me : When I bought my stage II 88 notes 3 years ago, my next purchase was already planned. I have had in the past 25 years ago an Hammond L100 with a Leslie 122 that my parents sold because it was out of order but I've always wanted to buy again a dual manual organ...So, when the C2D was released, I thought "that's it, this will be the B3 I've always been dreaming of....but the price was not a dream...so, when I saw your test between the two of them, I was ending to realize that I was not that much a drawbars Tweaker in the past. And two weeks ago, I found a C2 at my local dealer, used but so neat that you cannot even say it was a used one, at 1500$....and because I have already two ocean beach drawbars that I got use to it, the difference in price will allow me to buy the pedals right away....So, thanks again, having both drawbars and led at the same time is best of both worlds, the red color match perfectly my Stage II and as the drawbars on a C2D will never be the same as the long lenght ones on an old B3, my current setting with the two ocean beach is perfect. Because of you I saved a lot, thanks again.
Sincerely
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby Quai34 » 02 Mar 2014, 10:09

And yes, I,forgot to mention that with this price, the Nord red gig bag was included....so, good deal....
Stage 2/C2/NL2X+TC Pedals, 2XMatrix, EMU P2K, TX802, DSI P8/Tetra+H9, P12+TC HoF, D50+PG1000, XV5080,AX keytar, Streichfett, Drumbrute.Ibanez SR1200 & 2605 basses, Artstar AS153,G&L L2000,Legacy HSS,Asat Blueboys,Asat Deluxe Savanna.genelec 8040A.
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Re: My Impressions - C2 versus C2D

Postby rippinux » 02 Mar 2014, 21:57

I got my C2 immediately before, to my surprise , the C2d came out ( literally ONE week) . I had previously , in the space of one year , bought SEVEN different clones . I tried everything to get them to sound like the Nord : an endless series of stomp boxes, tube pre amps, reverb units, assorted leslie simulators , ernie ball pedals, resulting into a horrendous nightmare of signal chains that would've given the Fire Marshall a stroke, ( and a heart-attack !) TWO different leslie sims, one for each manual ! I finally saw the light, and bought the C2. And far as i am concerned, THAT is all the organ i will ever need.
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