The Nord C1, C2 and C2D Organ Forum

Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 01:28

I have to admit; my complete C2 set including pedalboard, bench and small 12” speakers does fill my car –a stationwagon- almost completely. *)

One of the problems we run into is the Leslie-cube itself. The 3300 is not that heavy, you can haul it alone if you are a big guy, but to get in in and out a European wagon without damaging the interior or losing the lightweight bumper is an art on its own. If it fits at all. The original leslies are even bigger en heavier. In other words, almost unusable for gigs unless you have something like a van. The most fathers and mothers will not buy a commercial car or a van. So how do we do this?

I'd like to see a list of spotted alternatives, next of the Leslies themself and some specs, (dis)advantages etc. Keywords will be sound, usability (like connections), price and transport. If one of these aspects scores low, the mobile leslie becomes less interesting..

Imagine ... you are alone, it is raining, it is cold and windy, your small car is not next to your house, say, on the parking lot in front of it, with bad pavement. You like to go to the weekly rehearsal or play a gig somewhere. At 01.00 AM you have to bring the complete set back in your house without waking up the neighbours. Let's say you live on the second floor, but with an elevator to keep things reasonable. What kind of leslie solution do you prefer?


*)
For US and Canadian readers; a car of the size Ford Mondeo or Volvo V70 is considered 'large' in the Netherlands. This because gasprice is high and car ownership tax is rated by weight (3400 lbs dieselcar is about 190 USD a month). A van becomes less attractive for non-commercial use. With that being mobile with a large instrument.





I kick off with a Dutch company:

VanderPlas Baileo - POR500 - rotor speaker for organs and keyboards

website (in english) : http://www.vanderplasbaileo.com
Link to the speaker: http://www.vanderplasbaileo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=91
e-mail : info@vanderplasbaileo.com


por500.jpg
POR500
por500.jpg (75.02 KiB) Viewed 10396 times


This company offers two active (so amp included) systems; a small one for use o with vibraphone (PRV-60), and the POR500 for use with organ. They also build a midi bass pedal board.

This is a rotory speaker system in two parts. Therefore it looks transportable. The small wheels do not look as if they are ment to be bumped over the pavement to your car or to a cafe or stage and back again at least 2 times a week. But the good news is that It's weight isabout 25 + 12 kg in two units so a separate transporter will not be an issue. The top part seems portable enough. If it rains we can cover it all.

It uses a 2x500W Alto Power amp (class d technology) with two channels and a crossover (a crossover divides the signal in a high-frequency and low-frequency part before it goes into the amp). The original leslie does this at 800Hz so I assume it is like that,not sure yet. You can also order it with a different amp or without the amp.

The low freqs are covered by a 15 inch woofer (400W / 1500W max). Now we heard about the low-freq issues with the Leslie 3300 (drops at 70Hz). To solve that an active subwoofer can be connected to do that part. The 3300 does have a separate subwoofer output. I don’t know if the POR500 needs something like that and if it does have a separate sub-out..

The speed-up and slow-down rate is not adjustable, although is can be reprogrammed by the company. How the POR500 default response to the Nord Halfmoon switch is using the 1/4", is not clear yet, but I understood from the company that the they can make it work for you.
Update> because the 11 pins connector is available, it can be controlled by the C2 using the 11pins-cable.



It is available in red (hey!) and black.

Rotor/Lower part:
Freq range : 22Hz - 3500 Hz
Power : 400W / 1200W max
Size : 65 x 50 x 86 cm, including 8 cm wheels
Weight : about 25 kg

Horn/Upper part:
Size : 65 x 50 x 30 cm
Weight : about 12 kg



Did not heard it yet. The freqreange suggest something low, although not clear is how the response is from let's say 30 hz - 200 hz? Does it drop somewhere and how much? In other words, how does the bass kick?
I understood from an e-mail that the speeds and rise- en falltimes are programmed. This timing is fixed, but can be (re)programmed by the company. If you want it to control yourself, they can add a touch panel.

1/4" jack for audio, stereo 1/4" stereo jack for speedcontrol.
There is a demo-speaker with a 9-pins. 11-pins is also possible.
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Leslie alternatives


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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 01:49

Rotary Stage 40/Classic 40 aka P760 & P765/P147

These consoles have different names, but look if they are from the same builder. They are (were?) distributed by Hamichord, the ones named with a prefix P by Parieorgan.


company website : http://www.hamichord.ch
speakersystem webpage : http://www.hamichord.ch/Hamichord/Tonkabinette,_Zubehor.html

Rotary.JPG
Rotary Stage 40 / Classic 40
Rotary.JPG (55.77 KiB) Viewed 10385 times


On the website it looks like the company 'Rotory' is something separated from Hamichord. Not sure about this.
I asked them for info last week, did not get anything yet.


It is also mentioned on the page of parieorgan, an electromechanic tonewheel organ.

Rotary versions.JPG
Rotary versions.JPG (85.35 KiB) Viewed 10110 times


Speaker URL : http://www.parieorgan.it/speaker_en.htm
PDF URL : http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/pics/parie/k61-brochure.pdf



The motors used for driving the speakers are electronically controlled. Rotary uses the 40 WATT RMS valve amplifier "Back Stage".

Top mounted with 1" driver
Lower mounted with 15" woofer

Dimensions (cm)
P760: 65 x 54 x 138
P765: 65 x 54 x 105
P147: 67 x 57 x 111

Units are incorporated in a rigid flight case with castor wheels, that protects the parts and ensures easy transportation.

Rotary Amp.JPG
Rotary Amp.JPG (17.01 KiB) Viewed 10112 times

230 VOLTS 50 Hz 2 AMP
Power: 40 Watt
n. 2 6550 Power Tubes
n. 2 12AU7/ECC82 pre-amplifier tubes
n. 1 12AX7/ECC83 tone control tube
Crossover filter 20-800/800-6000 Hz
Speed Control: ROTARY PEDAL or from the organ:
slow (chorale), stop, fast (tremolo)
Tone Control: bass, treble (12 dB per oct.)
Volume Control
Input: 11 pin standard, input aux (jack 6,3 mm )
Dimensions: 42 x 27 x 17 cm



Of course we'd like to know about connections (C2 + Nord Half Moon), power, sound, weight, price etc.



On this Youtube video you see the black Rotory with the amp on the top.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeSAjtULwA
Watch on youtube.com
Last edited by Emile on 12 Dec 2013, 04:26, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 02:58

Motion Sound PRO-145

company URL http://www.motionsoundamps.com
speaker URL http://www.motionsoundamps.com/product.php?name=pro-145

Motion Sound Pro 145.JPG
Motion Sound Pro 145
Motion Sound Pro 145.JPG (60.71 KiB) Viewed 10347 times


Not that unknown anymore.
200 watts (130 w for bass)
dual 1/4-inch inputs and an 800Hz crossover
12AX7 tube pre amp
12 inch speaker for low freqs, Eminence speaker is a Beta 12” 8 ohm 250-watt, The low rotor response covers about 50 Hz to 2kHz (source: manual)
Subwoofer 1/4-inch output (< 100 Hz 18 dB/octave roll)
24.5"H 20"W 17"D / 62cm H 51cmW 43 cm D
65 lbs / 30kg

price 2010 : 2000 euro (http://news.musicstore.de/wp-content/uploads/PPV_Tipps_Tricks/KEY/KEY_ratgeber-rueckkehr-der-sound-kisten_TW10020648seiten.pdf)
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 03:22

Motion Sound MS-1771

speaker URL : http://www.motionsoundamps.com/product.php?name=ms-1771

MS-1771 MS.JPG
MS-1771 MS.JPG (30.85 KiB) Viewed 10336 times


Bi-amped 200W (130 W Rotor)
11 pin input
Lower Rotor includes a 15 inch Eminence Delta 15LF subwoofer
Rise Time Control,
Fall Time Control,
Fast Control,
Slow Control
Weight = 120 lbs / 54 KG
H 35.5” W 27.5” D 26” W / H 91cm W 71cm D 66 cm

price 2010 : 2500 euro (http://news.musicstore.de/wp-content/uploads/PPV_Tipps_Tricks/KEY/KEY_ratgeber-rueckkehr-der-sound-kisten_TW10020648seiten.pdf)
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 03:39

Leslie 3300

Leslie 3300.JPG
Leslie 3300.JPG (18.67 KiB) Viewed 10329 times


Please check the review of Jim Alfredson
http://www.organissimo.org/3300review_1.htm

Goes loud, 300 watt RMS
Older versions are eating horndrivers (see review http://www.organissimo.org/3300review_1.htm )
15 inch woofer
Drops below 70hz
sub out
For real bass an extra active sub is needed (' Going back to a standard tube Leslie is like listening to music on a tabletop radio after hearing it through a set of full-range speakers. ' )
Slow/Fast, Rise/Fall and Brake is adjustable
tube preamp
11 pins input
weighs 125lbs / 57 kg
24.8 inches wide by 20.5 inches deep by 35.4 inches tall (64 x 53 x 89 cm)

German price december 2013 : 3200 euro / 4300 USD ( http://www.thomann.de/nl/hammond_leslie_3300.htm)
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Mooser » 10 Dec 2013, 23:15

Thanks for showing those Leslie alternatives. I had no idea they existed. The Motion Sound Pro-3x is another alternative, and requires a bottom amp. The Leslie 2101Mk II could also be used with an other-than-Leslie bottom speaker, to make a smaller system

As far as I can tell, no down-firing-into-a-rotating-baffle-and-out-through-louvres-near-the-floor woofer will have the impact of a direct-firing woofer.
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 23:33

Mooser wrote:As far as I can tell, no down-firing-into-a-rotating-baffle-and-out-through-louvres-near-the-floor woofer will have the impact of a direct-firing woofer.


Do you mean baffle compared to wood or that a separate direct (sub)woofer is needed?
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 23:45

Speakeasy Roadbox Mk II

URL company : http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com
URL Speaker : http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/legacy-products/roadbox-mk-ii/

copy-of-mkii-cutout-on-white1.jpg
Speakeasy MKII
copy-of-mkii-cutout-on-white1.jpg (69.94 KiB) Viewed 10192 times


" built with premium pattern grade plywood, and coated with an ultra-durable polymeric finish. This industrial coating is virtually indestructible. Our Road Box Speaker cases are built to the exact dimensions of a shorter vintage Leslie™ (model 145 or 142), so that they are useful for many applications"

•400W 15″ bass speaker
•2-speed horn and wood rotor
•Pop-out casters
•Recessed Handles
•Fully painted and sealed interior

Dimensions: 33″ H x 29″ W x 21″ D
Weight: 175lbs / 80kg

Available versions

SE122MkII 60 watts tube; 122 hookup
SE147MkII 60 watts tube; 147 hookup
SE122MkII AMA 250 watts Solid State with AMA front end; 122 hookup
Roadbox MkII AMA 250 watts Solid State with AMA front end, 1/4″ Unbalanced Input, and Fast / Slow / Stop footswitch
Roadbox MkII GE Special version for guitar players. Contains no amplifier, allowing the player to use their favorite. Footswitch control allows for Fast/Slow and Stop rotor speeds.


Trying to get this speaker into the Netherlands doubles the price because of shipment and al kind of funny taxes. Unfortunately....
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 23:56

Speakeasy Roadbox Flat Pack

URL : http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com
URL speaker : http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/legacy-products/roadbox-compact-and-flat-pack/
URL amp : http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/current-products/absolute-modeling-amplifier/
Speakeasy Flatpack.jpg
Speakeasy Flatpack.jpg (52.6 KiB) Viewed 10185 times


•250 watt Solid State amplifier
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Re: Leslie alternatives

Postby Emile » 10 Dec 2013, 23:59

Speakeasy 122AMA (Absolute Modeling Amplifier) Preamp

http://www.speakeasyvintagemusic.com/current-products/absolute-modeling-amplifier/

Speakeasy 122 AMA.jpg
Speakeasy 122 AMA.jpg (40.56 KiB) Viewed 10184 times


"
The final link in the emulation of the “tonewheel” sound, the AMA is a Leslie™ amp in miniature.

Ever since the first amplifier was created Engineers have sought to make it perfect. IN the case of vacuum tube designs it was always a trade off. Produce maximum power from a vacuum tube and you loose sound quality. Keep the sound quality high, and you can’t produce much power. The original 122 and 147 designs took the middle way – a reasonable amount of power with a reasonable amount of fidelity.

Why is this important? Because of this design decision and the way these tone cabinets were used by performers, the unique tones of the hard driven and over driven Hammond™ were born.

With our preamps, the tonal warmth of vintage organ was resurrected for the clonewheel keyboard, now with the AMA the subtle hint of distortion of a hard driven Leslie™ and the over the top grudge of a fully over driven one are once again available.

The AMA has done for Solid State rotary cabinets what our preamp did for the digital clonewheel keyboard. It authenticated the sound; making new sound like old though the careful use of vintage vacuum tube technology!
"
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