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Band Amplification

Postby cphollis » 01 Jan 2017, 05:05

Sort of on topic, maybe not ...

http://chucksblog.typepad.com/late_bloo ... and-1.html

Cheers!
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Band Amplification


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Re: Band Amplification

Postby Limestrong » 01 Jan 2017, 13:49

Thank you, very interesting, also the update to it.
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby Quai34 » 01 Jan 2017, 17:06

Hi,
Came back at two am tonight after our new year evening and too the time to read all of it, very interesting, thanks for sharing....
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby AlQuinn » 01 Jan 2017, 19:02

Nice article Chuck. Almost all of it rings true for me. The only thing that surprised me is using the smaller K8s for mains and the larger K10s for monitors. I would have expected the opposite would work better but I hear what you're saying. Very interesting.
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby cphollis » 01 Jan 2017, 19:35

AlQuinn wrote:Nice article Chuck. Almost all of it rings true for me. The only thing that surprised me is using the smaller K8s for mains and the larger K10s for monitors. I would have expected the opposite would work better but I hear what you're saying. Very interesting.


Hi Al, hope all is well with you!

Yes, it's counter-intuitive, but that's what seems to work best. The K10s and K12s are highly directional like most self-powered PA units. If you're in a larger space, that can be OK, but in smaller spaces it doesn't work as well: it's a beam-y sound. The K8s have a much wider dispersion angle, and end up sounding a lot better in smaller venues. They're not "in your face" the way larger PA units can be. Also, if you think about the frequency content of vocals, it's not too challenging in terms of low or high frequencies as you're not looking for thundering bass.

The directionality of the K10s and K12s works well for stage monitors, so there you have it :)

So, have you pulled the trigger on a Nord Piano 3 yet? I'm holding the line for the time being ... don't know how long I'll last though.
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby costaseglezos » 02 Jan 2017, 01:30

Hello from Athens Greece!
Thank you Chuck for such an interesting article!

My argument is about the amplification for the vocals only.
Here is the thing...

In our city, it is very common for bands to play in small or medium sized and quite odd shaped bars or cafes, which have no stage, not even a decent PA other than a surround sound system with a subwoofer or two somewhere in the middle.
Usually, the band sits in a corner, using speakers and amps for monitoring and the sound to the house comes from the surrounding speakers.
The drummer has no amplification at all, doesn't need to.
The bass frequencies travel wide in the area, so, there 's no problem with the bass, too.
The "prima donna" is heared everywhere, even in the next bar, no question about it.

We, keyboard players, have our stereo or mono monitor as well.
If we raise up the volume to be heared to the audience, there are two problems:
One, the balance of the stage goes wrong and the keyboard (especially if it's comping) is annoying to the other musicians.
Two, loss of the sence of the dynamics. At least, that's what I feel when I play very loud, especially APs.

So, I think that what I need is to have my stage sound the way I feel comfortable to play and at the right volume in the stage mix, but go through the PA to be heared to the audience at the same time.
Last edited by costaseglezos on 02 Jan 2017, 01:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby cphollis » 02 Jan 2017, 02:24

costaseglezos wrote:Hello from Athens Greece!
Thank you Chuck for such an interesting article!

My argument is about the amplification for the vocals only.
Here is the thing...

In our city, it is very common for bands to play in small or medium sized and quite odd shaped bars or cafes, which have no stage, not even a decent PA other than a surround sound system with a subwoofer or two somewhere in the middle.
Usually, the band sits in a corner, using speakers and amps for monitoring and the sound to the house comes from the surrounding speakers.
The drummer has no amplification at all, doesn't need to.
The bass frequencies travel wide in the area, so, there 's no problem with the bass, too.
The "prima donna" is heared everywhere, even in the next bar, no question about it.

We, keyboard players, have our stereo or mono monitor as well.
If we raise up the volume to be heared to the audience, there are two problems:
One, the balance of the stage goes wrong and the keyboard (especially if it's comping) is annoying to the other musicians.
Two, loss of the sence of the dynamics. At least, that's what I feel when I play very loud, especially APs.

So, I think that what I need is to have my stage sound the way I feel comfortable to play and at the right volume in the stage mix, but go through the PA to be heared to the audience at the same time.


I too play many odd-shaped rooms and smaller venues with no stage, etc. However, we never use the "house music" system for the band as it wasn't designed for live music. Many venue owners think it is a wonderful idea for the band to use their background music system. It has never, ever worked out well for me (distortion/buzz, poor mix, phase cancellation with the live sound, hard to get levels right, etc.).

You don't mention what you're using for keyboard amplification today. That might be part of the problem. You also don't mention whether you have a PA for vocals.

You are of course welcome to run your keyboards through anything you choose. My suggestion would be to look at what you're using for keyboard amplification. As you say, the drummer is OK, the bass player is OK, and so on. Except you. You want to be heard, but not overpower anyone. A common situation.

As far as stereo keyboard amplification goes, I always use the SpaceStation v3 in these specific situations. I can fill the room evenly, and be heard by both the musicians and the audience without being obnoxious. I can't think of anything better for this application, which is why I own it.

Depending on the volume levels of your band, you also may want to try running vocals through a SSv3 as well.

As you do your research, you'll find everyone says pretty much the same thing: a 300 degree stereo sound field with no hotspots or directionality. The only caveat is that it is not good as a near field monitor -- the design requires a meter or two for the sound to "bloom". A small SSv3 positioned sideways on an amp stand behind me, and I'm good for 90% of my keyboard gigs.

If you go to the blog link above, you'll find a few articles on keyboard amplification. I hope it helps!

-- Chuck
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby costaseglezos » 02 Jan 2017, 03:07

Thank you Chuck for the quick answer!
I currenly use a yamaha stagepas 400i set to run my NS2.

There are two options:
1. I sit while I play and I place the speakers left and right. I send a nominal signal to the main console. No problem at all.
2. I place the speakers one right next to the other and at the back of the "stage" to deliver the sound both to the musicians and the audience. In this case I 'm either loud for the stage or can't be heared well by the audience.

I plan to buy the spacestation, too.
Last edited by costaseglezos on 02 Jan 2017, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Band Amplification

Postby cphollis » 02 Jan 2017, 04:10

My impression of the Stagepas 400i is that it might work as an entry-level system for acoustic singer/songwriter gigs at places like a coffeeshop. I think it would have a hard time effectively amplifying keyboards (or vocals) in a louder electric band. But I've never tried it, so I'm just guessing.

Like most powered PAs, it's probably very directional and won't handle acoustic pianos well. Your NS2 deserves better :)

I think one of your challenges might be learning to calibrate the difference between what YOU hear and what OTHERS hear. And your current amplification probably isn't helping you. It took me a while to learn how to do this reliably.

Being farther away from your amplification helps. I sometimes will place my keyboard PA units at the very back of the stage, left and right. I then try to sit up front with the other musicians. Only works if the stage is deep enough. And it's much easier for me to calibrate with the SSv3 as it surrounds.

Best of luck!
I think I have gear issues ....

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Re: Band Amplification

Postby Rusty Mike » 02 Jan 2017, 04:48

Something to note about the QSC K-Series is their amazing projection. The magical way they throw sound allow the music to sound just as great at 50 feet as they do from 10 feet. I'll take a guess that other high quality speakers do this as well.

I use a K8 and/or K10 as my sole amplification, and I find the volume is pretty even for a pretty good distance, and it actually sounds better from 10 feet and beyond.

Regarding monitors, the K8's enclosure is not designed to be used as a floor monitor, but the K10 and K12 are. The 8's shape doesn't support a floor wedge placement.
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